so what else besides the cams can be done to make a competative ls motor?im looking to try to get the most hp out of an ls all motor set up.suggestions please…mak
Headwork, drivetrain work, different tranny, stronger internals. Everything, it really never stops. It all depends how much money you want to sink into it.
ls all motor
ok but is it really worth it ?or should i look into anothr engine like b16a or gsr or even h22,i heard that ls/vtec is not so realiable.
With a four cylinder and a 2500lb car you really arent going to be that fast without spending big $$$$(or going FI). If you really want to go fast all motor, go on a diet. Once you, ballance & blueprint, port&pollish, bump the compression and add cams & I/H/E with tuning It will cost you a lot less to take 500+ lbs out of the car than to add 50 hp.
Ls/vtec done right is just as reliable as any other highly modded motor. A hot rodder doesn’t expect to get more than 15k miles on a street motor before a refresh. Our comp eliminator motor goes four miles before a teardown(new rings/bearings). Our Super Gas motor goes 50 miles(200 passes) before we can tell we’re loosing power due to poor ring seal.
Re: ls all motor
Originally posted by maks92teg
ok but is it really worth it ?or should i look into anothr engine like b16a or gsr or even h22,i heard that ls/vtec is not so realiable.
It’s worth it if you think it is worth it. A lot of people will tell you to go VTEC if you wanna go NA, but it isn’t the only route. Personally, I like having a quick LS. VTEC is not everything.
Re: Re: ls all motor
Originally posted by G2Integrity
[B]
It’s worth it if you think it is worth it. A lot of people will tell you to go VTEC if you wanna go NA, but it isn’t the only route. Personally, I like having a quick LS. VTEC is not everything. [/B]
Finally someone on this board doesn’t think VTEC is where all the power is! :werd:
^^vtec itself has nothing to do with making power. There are several worldwide organizations that lobby congress and the automotive industry to make more fuel efficient less poluting vehicles. Each automaker has a goal for each year to reduce average emissions. Vtec (and other forms of variable valve timing) helps the automaker create a ballance between its goals, the average driver, and the auto-sport enthusiast.
An ls motor with wild cams will put out 5 to 25 times more polutants(and be less driveable) from idle to 3500rpm than a similar size vtec motor. The vtec head casting has much better flow characteristics than the ls casting. Ive talked to more than a few shops (looking to get port and polish on my b16a head) and NO ONE can get more (or the same) flow from an ls head than a vtec head .
I think there’s someone on this board with an ls and a gude or jg head/cam with other assorted parts that would cost over $5k new and he was only running mid 14s. That wouldn’t be so bad but he’s ALL IN and for $6k you could get an '87vette.
Originally posted by manny_mo
Ls/vtec done right is just as reliable as any other highly modded motor.
I gotta disagree with that comment right there. The ls/vtec has a bad reliability record because it only gets oil to cylinders 3 & 4 due to the tap. That means that 1 & 2 are running dry, especially during vtec when the oil squirters are supposed to be doing their job.
As a race motor they are just fine, but in a daily driver you are better off going with either a full LS or a full VTEC setup.
Most of the people that want to go ls/vtec dont understand how that motor works and why it will blow up after a couple years of use, at the most.
I am not a big fan of the ls/vtec, obviously, but it can be made to do what you want it to do, but you have to understand how it works and know how to fix it when it finally goes.
Personally, I am building an all motor LS. It is just a side project I do because I have nothing better to do. I am also making a point to not spend a crapload of money and go impulse shopping. I have a lot of patience and that is saving me a lot of money.
Maybe I will do a vtec project sometime down the road, but for now I like my torque… Anyway, vtec parts cost way too much.
Later,
BR
I’m not a fan of ls/vtec either (I don’t like rigged sh*t). By no means am I recomending that anyone build an ls/vtec(search my posts). I only said that ls/vtec done right was as reliable as any highly modded motor. I’m building a 4mm overbore b16.
Any seriously modded motor(wilder cams, higher compression higher revs) is not going to last but about 15 to 30k miles before it starts to lose power and needs a refresh unless you drive it like its a stock motor (but then whats the point of building it??).
If an ls/vtec lasts 3 years(@12k miles a year) that is relatively good reliability. If you plan for this you can get another ls block and crank (for $100) have it setup to fit the rest of your reciprocating assembly, and freshen your motor over a few days for under $500. If you think you can build an all motor torque monster thats going to last you 100k miles it’s time to put down the pipe and take three steps back. If you want honda reliability keep it stock.
“Anything” you do to your motor that increases its output (besides decreasing frictional losses and excesive exhaust back pressure ) will decrease its usefull life.
IMO VTEC :gay:
Dude Vtec is not :gay: I have an LS as well, but the fact is that stock for stock every DOHC Vtec engine is gonna beat us. The LS has just as much potential as a Vtec when you build it, but it’s more expensive and once you get towards 190 at the wheels all motor I don’t think that it will be very streetable. Don’t knock it cause we don’t have it. If I could afford it I’d have a nice b18c5 sittin in my engine bay right now, but I don’t so I’m going the cheaper root and will end up doing cams, up the compression and be happy with around 150 at the wheels.
manny_mo - Dont get me wrong, I know what you meant and didnt mean to offend you or anything. I was just stating a fact about the ls/vtec motors that a lot of people dont know. Primarily that when you tap the oil line that it only lubes up half the head…
I know that building a motor with aftermarket parts, mainly performance parts, will cut down on the life of a motor but if done right it can last a long time.
I am pretty sure that I could build a torque monster that could last 100k miles, that is actually what I am in the process of doing. An all motor LS. My trick to it is using as many OEM honda parts as I can. Sure, they may not be intended to be used in the motor I am putting them in, but they will still do the job just fine and still have the honda reliability. Its all give and take, but you obviously know that.
Your project sounds pretty cool with the b16. I hope to hear more about it when you get it finished up.
Later,
BR
no offense taken. I was going to do ls/vtec and did a lot of research. The oiling problem you mentioned and the fact that i would be using parts in a way they were never intended to be used(rigging things) were the main reasons I decided against it.
A high performance ls motor like the one your building is great. I’m going to put mine into an 89-90 crx after I finish the b16. With the lighter wieght of the rex the b18a/b will really shine.
As for longevity. I didn’t mean to imply that your b18a/b would blow up, just that a higher output, higher revving, higher compression b18a/b with its poor rod to stroke ratio isn’t going to last 100k and still make good power. (no it won’t blow up but you’ll have serious blow by) If you drive like you built it to drive, youll need a cyl bore clean up and a re-ring somewhere between 15-30k miles or you’ll start losing power. A re-ring is cheap but then you have the engine apart and might as well go .25mm over and get new pistons and…
re: all honda
When you say to go all honda, does that mean no AEM adjustable cams, crower camshafts, etc? And these lose power after several thousand miles?
As always, I completely agree with BR.
Honda built LS motors and Vtec motors seperately for a reason. As BR explained, putting together an LS/Vtec motor is asking for trouble. Don’t get me wrong, they haul ass, but let’s see em make a cross country trip without blowing up.
A built LS motor is not much different, but it is at the very least engineered to work the way it does. A built LS motor will put out a hell of a lot more pollutants than a built Vtec motor (trust me, my LS stinks like a mother…).
One thing I will never understand is why people built LS/Vtec motors. True, it will rev to 85 or 9500 if you build the head right, but an LS block only makes power to 7700 rpm at the most. My GUDE built LS revs to 8500 all day long with NO VTEC, but the power peaks at 7700 and drops from there.
Here’s the longevity argument…
I have had my GUDE head package since December of 1999. Since then, I have put about 50,000 miles on it. I run 11.0:1 compression, bullfrog cams, a super rich computer, basically the whole 9. I STILL spank BRAND NEW GSR’s like it was no problem. If a motor is taken care of, as in changing the oil. plugs, cap, rotor, fuel filter, etc., and as long as it’s BUILT RIGHT, it will last. An LS/Vtec won’t no matter what because it was not designed to do so. If you don’t believe me, answer this for me… Why is it that EVERY one of my friends who has a LS/Vtec setup is already switching it out for a B16 or a b18c? Think about it.
I guarantee this, you stick Dan’s poorman’s ITR next to any LS/Vtec and he’ll either spank the **** out of it or stay in front at least enough to win. However, Dan does **** the RIGHT way compared to a lot of LS/Vtec builders.
-Nick
I have a rebuilt lsvtec with, here goes: Eagle rods, je 11.5:0cr w/a .5mm overbore, block guard, arp rod bolts and head studs, crower stage 2 vtec cams, crower valve springs and titanium retainers, and skunk2 cam gears. I have had it for 10,000 miles, have driven to Florida and back, and raced it plenty; I change my oil every two thousand miles, and don’t drive like a maniac every waking moment. It dynoed at 204whp and 139lbs. of torque. It is very fun to drive and so far hasn’t given me any problems, it also has a gsr fuel and water pump. MY point is don’t knock until you’ve tried it! I guarantee it’s faster then any gsr I have faced let alojne ls’s, but to each his own…
ls all motor
ok then so what would be the best way to build a fast ls? can you give me like a list of things i shoul consider or need to do in order to have a good,fast,reliable,fast,not so exencive and again fast all motor LS.I have like 150k miles and still running strong and no smoke comes out of it i feel that i could use soem more hp but i heard there’s not much you get out of the ls motor,i like the torque but i would like more top end,what do you suggest???
Raising compression is a must!! port and polish the head for better flow, flow is very important , consider upgrading your tb and IM and port match both your Intake and exhaust flow, upgrade the valve train, and get some wild cams along with cam gears, and tune that biatch! Make sure she is getting all the fuel she needs to! With all the mods in place and working together, the next step would be to tune your fuel map and ignition timing, I hope that helps? Or gives you some type of idea, I think that you can get lots of power with a complete setup, good luck!
Re: ls all motor
Originally posted by maks92teg
ok then so what would be the best way to build a fast ls? can you give me like a list of things i shoul consider or need to do in order to have a good,fast,reliable,fast,not so exencive and again fast all motor LS.I have like 150k miles and still running strong and no smoke comes out of it i feel that i could use soem more hp but i heard there’s not much you get out of the ls motor,i like the torque but i would like more top end,what do you suggest???
Reearch, research, research. All the LS owners here could give you their list of mods and stuff, but it isn’t the same. Basically, if you wanna go NA, just start slow. Get i/h/e. Then get some cams. then tune em. Then get tranny/drivetrain. Reduce weight somewhere in there. It’s a journey. Just have fun with it.
manny_mo - Cool, I am glad you didnt take that the wrong way…
Those are the same reasons that I have decided that the ls/vtec is not worth doing, not for me anyway.
I was actually thinking about putting an LS motor in a crx or civic hatch too, but that might happen later in the future. Gotta stick it out with the teg first.
As far as the LS reliability goes. I know that mine will last for a long, long time because I am building it right from bottom to top. Everything is getting worked by either me or a machine shop and I am already going with .25mm over pistons from the get go. I should probably explain that I am starting from a bare block and will be building it piece by piece. That is going to make a huge difference in reliability…
Also, I will drive it for how I build the motor, but not all the time. I drive pretty chill and I try not to rev it out too much because doing it every day every time you drive is just not good for the motor…
vtec-typer - No, that isnt what we mean. What we are saying is that honda can afford to put much more R&D into their products and as a general rule, honda reliability is nearly impossible to beat. They are just known for doing things right the first time around so you dont have to mess with it later on down the road.
Aftermarket parts are fine but there are still those times that an aftermarket company just doenst have the reliability, let alone reputation, of honda.
AllMotorLS - :werd: Enough said.
C-dogg’slsvtec - That motor sounds kick ass, but you have to admit that the ls/vtec has some faults to it from the beginning. It is a great motor to build for power, but not for reliability.
I have just heard too many newbies getting into the scene say ls/vtec this ls/vtec that. How much they want one. All the way up until you explain to them how they are made, what goes into one and what their life expectancy is.
They you get people like you and me who know what they are doing and can fix a problem if something arises on our own without dumping out our life savings to a shop to do the work and get a hold of parts…
You know what I am talking about.
Oh, and I totally agree with you on your last comment… “To each his own”
maks92teg - C-dogg’slsvtec and G2Integrity both have some good points about your question.
The best advice that I could give you is to not get ahead of yourself in anything and research everything to death and then make a well educated decision on whatever path you want to take with your car.
Later,
BR