To All The K-Series Nut Huggers...

This is true. How ever, I talked to a member on another forum who did a K series DA (not the orange one that was on here a while ago) and he said total was $$8K JUST to get the car running. My turbo kit with a harness bar, harness’ and skunk 2 IM coasted about the same. Not my rebuild parts though.

I would say a K series is like buying a turbo kit and running on stock block. ( price wise)

I am not downing the K at all. Its a bad ass engine. For me, FI > K Series. I would LOVE to have a k for a daily driver though.:excite:

designed??? wtf… you think honda DESIGNED any of their motors to be swapped between different chassis?

it was never “designed” to be in any other chassis other than what it comes with stock from the factory…

good condition motors are harder to come by nowadays… so by all means sit and play with your motor from a decade ago.[/QUOTE]

over 60% of all honda enthusiasts plan to dump a k series in their bay, which is kind of ridiculous at some point when honda comes up with a new series there will be another retard spending 10k doing a swap. Oh and yes “designed” is the right word lol

yes I might see other nissan-toyo enthusiasts doing the same but…what 3 out of 300??? Swapping a k-series wont guarantee beating a 911 at the track or being “mad jdm yo” this is just my opinion, if you have a different opinion stick to it and respect the others.

playing with motors from a decade ago is nothing new. hell, the chevy small block 350 has been around since the 60’s. hotrodders still use it over most offerings. It still produces results. i am sure that the “ancient” B series will still produce useful results for a longer while.

Thats what I’m talking about.

I want the last ten minutes of my life back.

why? i’m sure that nothing productive would have come from them if you’d had them back.

classic youtube bs. :werd:

so true lol

The K series is a better motor, plain and simple. However their transaxles suck and aren’t as strong as the B series trans.

This is why H22 guys go with the H2B setup. For the trans.

The H22 is a far better engine then the B series as well.

It’s basically F20C>K20A>H22>B18C

just fyi, i’m not saying that one is better than the other. i’m just saying that the b is not useless just because there is something “better” out there.

and this is where i click unsubscribe

[QUOTE=team123luder;2048058]The K series is a better motor, plain and simple. However their transaxles suck and aren’t as strong as the B series trans.

This is why H22 guys go with the H2B setup. For the trans.

The H22 is a far better engine then the B series as well.

It’s basically F20C>K20A>H22>B18C[/QUOTE]

:lol: ok. frm sleeves, weird ass harmonics, rediculous powerband and a very limited aftermarket. gimme a break. you can’t do anything really worth it to them without sleeving the block to start with. i’d rather run a d series in my teg than an H. no im not kidding.

and f i’d love to play with. but again, very limited aftermarket.

there is a reason that most of the larger tuning shops in japan STILL use b series engines. spoon for example majority of the engines that go through that shop are b series.

the b is the chevy small block of the honda world. plenty of guys will still be running them for decades to come,a nd plenty of companies will still be supporting them. theres a reason why.

Local Car tuned at a local shop.
Bone Stock B18C
Log Manifold
Turbonetics T66 ‘Tomzilla’ Turbo
Full 3" Exhaust No Muffler
Edlebrock Intake Manifold
2.5" Piping
AEM EMS

24psi on E85

Damn near 500 hp. (can’t post dyno until shop says its ok, emailed em this morning).

ha…i could spent it learning more about the k series at k20a.org now THAT place has some usefull info…unlike this tread…

Hound honda-tech.com and you’ll find a stock H22 boosted making over 550whp.

My stock H22 with just intake header and exhaust is making 211whp. Show me a B series that’s doing that.

My B18C-r in stock trim, toda cams, TWM TB’s, hytech header and full 3" exhaust just barely made over 203whp. Tuned on S300.

The type R engine is far better designed then my H22 and the power band sucks compared. The H22’s power band is amazing, gobs of low end power not just peak and is limited to a power drop off at 7200rpm due to my stupid intake/exhaust combo.

If I get a true CAI and a 3" exhaust my power would peak a bit higher, this is on stock cams, highend cheapy header, crush bent 2.5" exhaust, short ram intake. And 3GP engine bays get VERY hot.

I’m not downing the B series, as they are very well designed engines and the B16 revolutionized the automotive industry, this is why Toyota brought the VVTLi motors, about 8 years after.

FRM sleeves have nothing wrong with them. Can you elaborate on why they’re so bad? From my understanding, honda started the FRM technology in the 1989 Prelude Si. The B21A proved to be a very reliable engine and much lighter then it’s 2.0 B20A brother. This is why honda uses the FRM sleeves in the C30 NSX engine and in the F20C. Honda realized that FRM liners were much lighter, helped cool the engine better and just as or even stronger then the iron sleeves.

The biggest issue with FRM is it’s just so damn hard on rings it eats right through them.

And you’re right, I would much rather use a single cam D series then a B series my self, or even an F22 non VTEC, their valve angle is much better suited for higher hp levels then just about any other honda motor out there. This is how bisimoto was able to destroy the competition with his non vtec single slammer in NA trim. Most DOHC honda heads have their valve angle similar to this \ / , when the single slammers are better suited like this l l allowing for a much larger cam to be used.

please, I’m anxious to learn

[QUOTE=team123luder;2048127]Hound honda-tech.com and you’ll find a stock H22 boosted making over 550whp. (not for long. frm sleeves won’t hold the boost levels for that long. thats been proven time and time again)

My stock H22 with just intake header and exhaust is making 211whp. Show me a B series that’s doing that. (so the displacement gives it more power. doesnt make it better. you can’t wrap an h out to 8500rpm and make power up there in stock form. a gsr with a cam/valvetrain upgrade can)

My B18C-r in stock trim, toda cams, TWM TB’s, hytech header and full 3" exhaust just barely made over 203whp. Tuned on S300. (your exhaust is too large for a sub 2.0 l engine to start with.)

The type R engine is far better designed then my H22 and the power band sucks compared. The H22’s power band is amazing, gobs of low end power not just peak and is limited to a power drop off at 7200rpm due to my stupid intake/exhaust combo. (no its not amazing. the long ass gears make it seem that way. it needs those long ass gears to take advantage of the torque it’s making at 2500-3000 rpm. why do you think so many people go h2b besides the transmissions sucking so badly?)

If I get a true CAI and a 3" exhaust my power would peak a bit higher, this is on stock cams, highend cheapy header, crush bent 2.5" exhaust, short ram intake. And 3GP engine bays get VERY hot. (your peak power doesn’t mean anything. your stock cams limit you a great deal. but you still wont make power with stock cams past 7500 rpms. the displacement and torque is superior on the h no doubt about it)

I’m not downing the B series, as they are very well designed engines and the B16 revolutionized the automotive industry, this is why Toyota brought the VVTLi motors, about 8 years after.(you kinda are with your previous statements.)

FRM sleeves have nothing wrong with them. Can you elaborate on why they’re so bad? From my understanding, honda started the FRM technology in the 1989 Prelude Si. The B21A proved to be a very reliable engine and much lighter then it’s 2.0 B20A brother. This is why honda uses the FRM sleeves in the C30 NSX engine and in the F20C. Honda realized that FRM liners were much lighter, helped cool the engine better and just as or even stronger then the iron sleeves. (they aren’t bad but there are much better alternatives. hodna used them on the nsx specifically for cooling and longevity. the nsx was designed to make a statement to the rest of the exotic world. you can’t use std piston upgrade with them, you can’t bore them out, it’s a bitch ot hone, and if you nuke one, that’s it. buy a new engine. the cheaper the nsx gets you’ll start seeing them being sleeved and making a lot more power iwth increased compression.)

The biggest issue with FRM is it’s just so damn hard on rings it eats right through them. (and there is hardly an aftermarket for them. the b market is almost unlimited)

And you’re right, I would much rather use a single cam D series then a B series my self, or even an F22 non VTEC, their valve angle is much better suited for higher hp levels then just about any other honda motor out there. This is how bisimoto was able to destroy the competition with his non vtec single slammer in NA trim. Most DOHC honda heads have their valve angle similar to this \ / , when the single slammers are better suited like this l l allowing for a much larger cam to be used. (i woudlnt use a d over a b, id use a d over an H. )

please, I’m anxious to learn[/QUOTE]

(answers)

So all the boosted B21’s that have been boosted in stock trim for over 20kmiles is not long enough? My stock B18A went about 30k miles on the stock block 12psi. That was a long ass time for me.

H22’s can make power up to 8500rpm with the right cam, valvetrain setup. What’s the point? I can safely rev my H22 to 8200rpm in stock trim. No need to as I don’t make power there, I only rev to 8200rpm in 1st gear for momentum.

As for my exhaust being to big on my B18C-r powered EG, how do you explain the on average 4mph gain in the 1/4 mile? The added weight? Please, explain. My H22 loves a 3" exhaust simply because anything after the last collector on any header is a restriction. Why do all race cars drive with open headers/header? Wouldn’t that equate to a infinite sized exhaust?

So many people go with an H2B setup because of aftermarket support with the B series trans, gearing and shifter setup. The shifter cables suck on the H trans, gearing sucks as well. It’s no Euro R tranny but my stock H22 trans is decent. My tq drops off at 5200rpm… hmmm I don’t understand where you’re getting at. Power is affected by gearing only tq is. Then again, power band isnt affected by gearing either. So I don’t understand what you’re talking about.

Bisimoto showed me a few stock H22’s making 200=207whp up to 7700-7800rpm with a better intake and exhaust setup. He said the intake and exhaust is what’s holding my car to the 7200rpm drop off. Hmmm bisi is a god when it comes to tuning and building/engineering products. I’ll trust him and mostly every dyno I’ve seen with a true CAI and a 3" exhaust.

I’m not downing the B series, I’m just saying the H22 is far superior. The head outflows the B series head, even the ITR head. I just got home from helping my boy put his GSR together, .50mm over ITR replica pistons, eagle rods, polished crank, fully built head with JG custom grinds. And other classified things done to the ports. We’re aiming for 200+whp on it, maybe 140-150tq… where as my stock H22 put down 211whp and 168tq

The NSX uses FRM sleeves for cooling, weight, strength and longevity. You can upgrade pistons inside of FRM sleeves, the NSX and the F20C both use FRM sleeves and they come with stock forged pistons. The H22A is limited to custom wiseco’s, jun’s, and melie pistons. You can bore the FRM sleeves .25mm over which is pretty standard for most engine blocks. Don’t forget you can sleeve it and the sky is the limit.

If you think in stock trim a D is better then an H, you have a lot to learn bro.

So far nothing you’ve said has changed my mind. It’s all your own personal opinion and what you’ve gathered from hounding stupid posts of people who have no clue. DH racing has a stock block, fully built head H22 in a CRX that makes over 250whp. There’s an EG on H-tech.com with a stock H22/2b setup that’s into the 12second mark. Please show me where your b series is doing this.

Ok let’s try this one more time.

#1) you show me in your next post some proof of an h series head outflowing a p72 or pr3 head. a flow graph or something of that nature.

#2) coming with forged pistons from the factory doesn’t mean squat. the composition of the pistons is why custom pistons must be used with frm sleeves. FRM sleeves are fiber reinforced metal. Its carbon fiber/aluminum alloy/and aluminum oxide. You tell me how in the world you bore that, and how it iwll be stronger and hold boost better than a full ductile iron sleeves used in the other engines. it’s not. you can’t just walk into honda and buy pistons off another honda dn throw them in and expect it to work. there are a few advantages to frm sleeves. they are the following: longevity in stock form, less need for honing during rebuild (most shops won’t touch them anyway b/c the risk of messing them up is too high. i know this b/c ive asked a few shops myself), they stay cooler longer. now lets read from honda.

Honda Service Bulletin:
SB618958 #18939

1990-2001 Prelude – Honing Fiber Reinforced Metal (FRM) cylinders 2000-01 S2000

All S2000 and 1990 and later VTEC and SI Preludes have Fiber-Reinforced Metal (FRM) cylinder liners. FRM honing is not required unless the cylinder has deep vertical scratches that run the length of the bore. Cylinders with light colored spots or flaking cannot be corrected by honing and must be replaced.

To hone FRM liners, perform the following:
· Use a rigid hone (not a ball hone) with GC-600-J or finer stones for nonferrous
metals. The honing pressure should be 200-300 kPa (2-3 kg-cm2, 29-43 psi).
· Use an oil type honing oil.
· Hone at 45-50 rpm to a 60 degree-crosshatch pattern.
· Do not stroke the hone more than 20 cycles.
· After honing, thoroughly clean the engine block of all metal particles by
washing with hot soapy water, then dry and oil them immediately. Never use
solvent; it will only redistribute the grit.
· Some light vertical scoring and scratching is acceptable if it isn’t deep enough
to catch your fingernail, and doesn’t run the full length of the bore. (rm,sn)

See the bolded part. Now explain to me smart guy, if light colored spots prevent frm sleeves from being honed, and honda is flat out telling you they have to be replaced, gives you the impression that you can bore them out and be safe? Hmmm? I would expect SOME boring coudl be done, but to such a small degree it wouldnt’ matter. (EDIT: more research has corrected me here. .020 of an inch is about as much as can be bored in some cases without cyl disruption. verified below). however you cannot use stock pistons and rings anymore as i said before. you have to use pistons speficially made to work with frm sleeves. keep in mind the frm liner is thin to begin with. it’s supposed to be. anythign you change you are taking a risk of thinning the lining up too much. in addition, as i said before, you destroy a cyl on a frm sleeved block, you either have to sleeve it or throw it away.

Not good enough. ok. here. read from some more experts.
http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/htup_0907_honda_frm_liners/index.html

#3) show me some proof of a boosted b21 with that many miles on it. i’ve never seen anyone even use a b21 its’ the bastard child of the honda b series family. it’s no comparison to a c1 for example. you can throw 15 psi at a stock block properly tuned, rev over 8k, and drive it every day on pump gas for the rest of it’s life long as its properly maintained. you want to compare an h to a b use a proper and more common b.

#4) have you read anythign about exhaust systems and proper sizing to the engine size you’re using? no possible way a 3" exhaust is making more power than a 2.5" on a sub 2 liter engine like a b18c5. there is a reason that most off the shelf systems are around 60mm or less. Think about it. Here more experts with math to back it up. Every single book ever written by the experts and fathers of honda tuning all have a section in them stating proper exhaust sizing is importnat to making power and too big or too small an exhaust will hurt your overall powerband. it’s scripture. i own almost all of them. hit up a bookstore and peer through them.

Exhaust Basics
http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=47
Exhaust tech 1
http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=48
Exhaust tech 2
http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=355

#5) power is not affected by gearing only tq is? how do you figure? how do you think you get power. horsepower is directyl related to torque. force work and time. torque * rpms/5252. furthermore if you are agreeing with me that the gearing on a h sucks then why are you contesting what im saying here. the b series transmisions ahve better gearing and that will help take advantage of the h series and WHERE it makes power in it’s pwoerband. teh gear combinations optimize where you start making torque, and where you stop making power. this way you take advantage of every last point. horsepower rises more rapidly as engine speed increases. torque is still being made, but even when it stops the engin still makes power. why do you suppose that is? magic? you need more than a cam to make power up high. it’s a combination of many factors. power is an ability to do work over time, gearing will play a huge part here. .

#6) yes i do think a d is better than an h. ductile iron sleeves, good flow for its size, strong blocks, and better gearing. and the transmissions are very stout. hell yes i think ti’s better. you can build a d for 1/3 the price of an hswap, add boost and have a smile on your face. go hunting for a local d series guru near you and see hwat he has to say. you think b seires guys are die hards? we got nothing on a d series guru.

#7) dude use google for crying out loud. the 12 second mark is nothing new for built b seires blocks. what the hell does that do to help your argument anyway? a h in a crx or civic? power in a smaller lighter chassis of course will be fast. theres a local crx all motor in the mid 12s making 240ish whp. so what. that’s irrelevant to our discussion here. we can search all day and come up with all kinds of examples, but i guarantee that you’ll have a lot better luck finding b series builds. there are a lot more people racing with them.

I’ve posted all i care to on this subject. its off topic enough as it is.

You’re right, the be series is a more cost effective power plant

This is why it’s used in japan so much

and if yo can’t bore out frm sleeves, someone should contact jlude90 and goldenluderay they just bored their frm sleeves tisk tisk.

Oh and my itr didn’t make anymore power over the skunk 2 exhaust it had before. This is why i dumped it, more noise!

Thanks for changing my mind

I hate this thread

:gunleft:

k20…ha

i have and da ls with stage 1 exedy clutch and fly wheel, skunk2 i.m. with hondata gasket/ vision fuel p.r./ benen fuel rail and aem short ram intake and i burn the shit out of my buddys 05 k20 si hatch with aem intake and hks exhaust… he gets so pissed becuse his 8000$ car get burned by my car that ive put less than 2000$ into total(including purchase of car)…lol