The difference in displacement from a B16A to a B18A1 is A good amount. 239cc
The difference in displacement from a B18A1 to a B20B/Z is MUCH less. 138cc
food for thought… I am having a hard time justifying spending the extra cash (I could get the block for the price of a bore & hone job & blockguard) and going with a block with weaker sleeves for my the bottom end of my buildup. Any takers on this?
What are the power figures again for the B20?
B18A is 140HP/121Tq. (92-93).
Regards,
Oz
Have you ever seen the sleeves of a b20 block?? they are COMPLETELY different than any other b series block- much thicker and properly tuned can handle a moderate amount of boost without any problems. The cc’s is not the only difference between the blocks
146hp and 133tq for the z. However, in integra trim (with boltons usually) this engine seems to dyno around 140whp and 130wtq (+/- 5lbs). the jdm b’s seem to get comparable numbers to this too. Keeping in mind that these are just the peak numbers…
the other day i decided to attempt a launch ('90 teg w/'96 jdm b - all stock) on the street…again; been having trouble with them thanks to my stock sized, but fresh, tires.
Normally if i drop the clutch much above 2-2.5rpms i’ll spin to redline easy. So i tried an easy feathering launch from 2.5k. Perfect, hookup (slow process, but no spins). But, then i hit 3.5 to 4krpms, the tires broke loose and i wheel hopped to redline.
I sure couldn’t do that with my old b18a, not even with worn tires.
the 138cc’s isn’t the only advantage over over the b18A, of course, got’s bigger intake ports and possibly more aggressive cams. also, of note are bigger intake mani runners and the SMALLER plenum (low rise b20 mani here) and the 60mm tb.
Ok, so i sure got off topic.
d
Originally posted by gen2ls/vtec
[B]Have you ever seen the sleeves of a b20 block?? they are COMPLETELY different than any other b series block- much thicker and properly tuned can handle a moserate amount of boost without any problems. The cc’s is not the only difference between the blocks
[/B]
I have seen them, I think a little more than you! I’ve also ripped apart a b20b myself thank you. The way they look is only half the story, they are weaker than you think. A lot of people are having problems with them.
The casting of the sleeves in the B20b/z are manufactured completely differently than all other b-series blocks. The b20 blocks are known to have a weak spot as seen by the couple of pictures above. Granted they occured with FI applications, the same will eventually happen on an all motor setup. If there is a weakness, there is a weakness. b18b sleeves are not known to crack like this.
“B20B/Z has thinner walls than all other B-series engines. 6mm seperates each cylinder, whereas all other B-series have 9mm seperation.”
Originally posted by The_Oz
[B]What are the power figures again for the B20?
B18A is 140HP/121Tq. (92-93).
Regards,
Oz [/B]
I think we all know the power output of our engines! :argh:
http://hybrid2.honda-perf.org/tech/b20/
:dead:
Originally posted by daver
[B]146hp and 133tq for the z. However, in integra trim (with boltons usually) this engine seems to dyno around 140whp and 130wtq (+/- 5lbs). the jdm b’s seem to get comparable numbers to this too. Keeping in mind that these are just the peak numbers…
the other day i decided to attempt a launch ('90 teg w/'96 jdm b - all stock) on the street…again; been having trouble with them thanks to my stock sized, but fresh, tires.
Normally if i drop the clutch much above 2-2.5rpms i’ll spin to redline easy. So i tried an easy feathering launch from 2.5k. Perfect, hookup (slow process, but no spins). But, then i hit 3.5 to 4krpms, the tires broke loose and i wheel hopped to redline.
I sure couldn’t do that with my old b18a, not even with worn tires.
the 138cc’s isn’t the only advantage over over the b18A, of course, got’s bigger intake ports and possibly more aggressive cams. also, of note are bigger intake mani runners and the SMALLER plenum (low rise b20 mani here) and the 60mm tb.
Ok, so i sure got off topic.
d [/B]
very interested in ur setup. im purchasing a b20z soon(like next week soon) and was wondering if i could email u or have u email ur setup. integrating_my_2nd_gen@yahoo.com hit me up im interested. EDIT i had no idea that 3mm would have a significant difference in strength.
looks to me like oil was passing the rings. and we all know that when that happends things get hot quick. and that would cause the area to run hotter obviously cause no coolant can get to it. i dont know whats to blame still. the rings??? whatever happend it went into melt down mode. i think saying that eventually itll happen to all b20’s is pushing it.
Those pics show what could happen to ANY of our engines over time, whether it’s a B18A/B/C, B20B/Z, etc. We all should know by now the risks of running our engines hard, and that things like this may happen. I have to agree with DA9_LS-t on this…saying this will eventually happen to all B20s is kinda pushing it.
exactly. although i see 92tegs point. that design is a drawback, but this case doenst look to be the sleeves fault. if this didnt happen surely something else wouldve gave.
The sleeves are weaker due to a difference in manufacturing techniques. People are more easily cracking sleeves in b20’s with mild turbo setups than they are with b18’s. I think its plain and simple that the b20 is clearly weaker.
i dont know if thats right cause i see no proof. the case above isnt faulty sleeves so much as the driver shouldve noticed the motor is eating oil. when www.crvtec.com was up they claimed to have boosted stock sleeves if i remember correctly. arent the b18a’s siamese sleeves also? im not disagreeing with for the sack of my plans. i plan on reinforcing my sleeves with a unique technique that rarely anyone uses. i do agree that where that crack is, is clearly the weakspot. PS how much boost was that motor under?
Here’s a few, I’ve got to get to class. By reinforcing your sleeves in a unique way I don’t see what else you are doing other than a blockguard.
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=280895
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=280870
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=304251
Read here and scroll along: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=280895
The owner of the engine says “Just 16 PSI cracked it.” JUST 16 PSI!?! :bang:
It’s no wonder why the damn thing blew! The guy was running 16 lbs of boost on stock sleeves. Sheesh…even the guys on the Honda-tech.com board were giving him crap for what he did. Like I said in my earlier post, “Those pics show what could happen to ANY of our engines over time, whether it’s a B18A/B/C, B20B/Z, etc. We all should know by now the risks of running our engines hard, and that things like this may happen.”
Yes hoorah, people have put “just 16psi” on ls blocks many of times for very short intervals and haven’t cracked them. The same thing could happen to any block in the world, but we can all agree that the first one to crack will be the weakest. Which brings me to my point. :danger:
Originally posted by teg92
[B]Yes hoorah, people have put “just 16psi” on ls blocks many of times for very short intervals and haven’t cracked them. The same thing could happen to any block in the world, but we can all agree that the first one to crack will be the weakest. Which brings me to my point. :danger:
[/B]
Point well taken. The info you found about the B20 is useful to say the least. I must give you props for that. 
But judging from the info you provided, the B20 may likely be the weakest SLEEVED of the bunch. True, there are some people out there who run high boost on LS blocks. But keep in mind that the guy with the B20 could’ve been beating the crap out of his motor using high boost, for longer than he should have. Notice he never does mention how his driving habits are or how hard he’s been running his motor.
It all boils down to common sense. If you were to run high boost on your motor, you’d want to take the proper precautions to make sure the thing doesn’t fail on you. Hell, that guy did mention that he is now looking into Golden Eagle sleeves for his motor…a wise decision that he should have thought of to begin with.
Now, if you were to run the B20 N/A, the sleeves cracking shouldn’t even be an issue. The sleeves in the B20 may not be the strongest of the B-series bunch, but they’re strong enough. Now if you were going to beat the hell out of your motor and run some kind of crazy setup, then you might want to look into stronger sleeves. It just boils down to common sense. 
Originally posted by teg92
[B]Here’s a few, I’ve got to get to class. By reinforcing your sleeves in a unique way I don’t see what else you are doing other than a blockguard.
So, b20 sleeves are weak but...? - Honda-Tech - Honda Forum Discussion [/B]
hmmm i dont remember telling u about what i was doing at all. the sleeves are being filled with epoxy and holes are left open for coolant. the deck is closed. this technique has a 0 return rate so far. but has only been used 3ltr (and 3.2 including the NSX engine) v6 hondas. he has had those hondas boosted beyond 20psi all the time, stock sleeves.
As for the motor again look at the oil baked on it. the rings failed first. so are we to assume the rings are faulty first? all im saying is this case is a bad example. :bow:
I just finished reading this post: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=280870
There are guys in there who agree that the B20 sleeves are crap. They all agree that running high boost on the B20 (with stock sleeves) is NOT recommended…which is what that one guy did wrong to begin with.
Originally posted by Zero
[B]I just finished reading this post: What a sad day. Cracked B20 Sleeves - Honda-Tech - Honda Forum Discussion
There are guys in there who agree that the B20 sleeves are crap. They all agree that running high boost on the B20 (with stock sleeves) is NOT recommended…which is what that one guy did wrong to begin with. [/B]
:werd: you’re basing your conclusions on one person’s setup, which is completely illogical. Then you say you “prolly” have more experience with this than I do, which I don’t kow how you came to that conclusion. Even if you do, which there’s a good chance of, how did you make that conclusion?
here is a pic of the b20 block you posted:
and here is a pic of a b18a block, and if it matters its mine:
If you look at the steel lining within the sleeves, it is one solid piece of steel, whereas with all other b series blocks, the steel lining is not connected between the cylinders and there is 4 individual linings around each cylinder. One solid piece, which looks to be slightly thicker btw, should be stronger in the areas that honda blocks typically have weak points. This is how I based my opinions. Notice I didnt bring any specific cases up- this opinion is not based on “my buddies motor” or “some dood I know” It is simply what makes sense.
“B20B/Z has thinner walls than all other B-series engines. 6mm seperates each cylinder, whereas all other B-series have 9mm seperation.”
as far as this comment is concerned- the stress of a sleeve is not going to be predominantly between the cylinders, considering the crank and rods are traveling in a perpendicular motion to the areas between the cylinders. The greatest stress is going to be put on the north and south side of the sleeves when looking at the block from the front of the vehicle because those are the directions that the piston is wanting to travel if the sleeves were not there to guide it up and down at a completely verticle angle.
Originally posted by gen2ls/vtec
[B]If you look at the steel lining within the sleeves, it is one solid piece of steel, whereas with all other b series blocks, the steel lining is not connected between the cylinders and there is 4 individual linings around each cylinder. One solid piece, which looks to be slightly thicker btw, should be stronger in the areas that honda blocks typically have weak points. This is how I based my opinions. Notice I didnt bring any specific cases up- this opinion is not based on “my buddies motor” or “some dood I know” It is simply what makes sense.
“B20B/Z has thinner walls than all other B-series engines. 6mm seperates each cylinder, whereas all other B-series have 9mm seperation.”
as far as this comment is concerned- the stress of a sleeve is not going to be predominantly between the cylinders, considering the crank and rods are traveling in a perpendicular motion to the areas between the cylinders. The greatest stress is going to be put on the north and south side of the sleeves when looking at the block from the front of the vehicle because those are the directions that the piston is wanting to travel if the sleeves were not there to guide it up and down at a completely verticle angle.
[/B]
:werd: