kooo, nice educated response
Ah well at one point today after reading some of HX_Guy’s posts I was convinced I’m dropping it all and going CRVTEC, but after having a long talk with my engine builder, I’ve decided to stay on track. As soon as the head is on and the paint & suspension is taken care of this spring I will be shopping for a B20B shortblock, some JE or Endyn pistons and an b16a tranny… Sure HX_Guy’s B20VTEC setup whoops compared to his notec setup but the guy had a stock head, no porting. Crower & Crane specify you need headwork done, and getting no headwork is like shooting yourself in the foot.
I am now as confident as ever, especially after seeing the first carvings of machine work done to my IM…
ofcourse it real
You can make a LS fast.
dpr ran 12.7 in a 94 integra that was stripped inside but still had all factory body work/glass, it even had a body kit.
DPR headwork, gude reground cams, longer valves etc
it made 180 hp to the wheels.
damn 12s…looks like im keeping my LS…do you the specs on the motor? b20? probably pushing like a 2.4L hmmmm
Originally posted by G2guru
Daver, show me a dyno plot of a B20 with cams that make power to 8500rpm (non-VTEC head) and I’ll be a believer. More displacement doesn’t always mean FASTER. Just ask the Preludes GUTTED why they are smelling my exhaust fumes. The B16A is a great motor, spins up very quickly and is very efficient. It’s just not a torque monster. Big deal. I’ve ridden in B16A Tegs and it’s not a huge difference. The B20 will definitely have the B16A on the line, but the B16A powered Teg will catch up in a hurry at higher rpms. If both had good cams, it would be an interesting race.
Sorry Dan, i should be more clear when i get off on one of my hypothetical technical speals. Maybe if i had more hands on experience, i wouldn’t have to invent my “logical” scenerios.
No, i don’t think any 8500 rpm cams exist for the b20 (yet or ever will). I was just trying to compare the b16 to the b20 on an equal playing field…apples to apples. Maybe i should have said 8000rpm cams (where does the b16 redline at, 8.2k?)
here’s the best i could do…
the b16 (Brandon Smith’s 88 Civic DX - B16A1, ITR mani, GSR cams, LCR ECU: 158 whp / 113 ft-lbs)…
and the b20 (Val Berechet’s 97 Civic HX - B20Z, Crower 62404’s, Cam gear tuning/JDM ITR header: 166 whp / 140 ft-lbs…and a skunk intake too, i think)…
…or the same b20 as above 'cept with an obviously chipped ecu to rev past stock…
…but he’s got a super high 11.4 cr to pad those numbers
If the b20 depicted is going to make power any higher than that, it’s going to need some significant port work to say the least. Otherwise, i think the first two charts (b16 vs. the b20) have similar mods (so similar costs right teg92? - not counting the initial engine cost). You can see who’s making more power, but to see whose faster, try extrapolating, or just ask newman who has played with both setups.
I understand what you mean, Dan, about more displacment not necessarily = faster. If the smaller engine revs higher, then you get spend more time in each gear before shifting to a higher doggier gear (same tranny scenario, that is).
and there are definately limits to this technology. Bigger engines have heavier innards (and lower r/s ratios perhaps), so they may not freespin accellerate as fast as the smaller engines).
A drag setup is dependant on much more than just the engine #'s. Combination is everything. B16 in a light hatch that can hookup and rev forever, or a torky b20 in the same car that spins thru the first 2 gears, followed by the doggy LS 3rd gear taking the next 20 minutes to find the redline…
anyways…
d
daver you are forgetting that the b20 had about 20-30 more lb-ft of torque till about 6k than the b16. As for needing more work to break higher numbers, thats easy. Check on crowers catalog, speak to any head porter, speak to crane, speak to crower, speak to JG. Running cams with lift that big without having a ported head or valve job is shooting yourself in the foot.
The head is designed to flow a certain amount of air. It can do more to a certain extent (403’s), anything past that and the extra lift and extra air will cause more turbulence then anything. That’s why crower and crane and JG all specify you NEED serious head work and ECU tuning etc with anything higher than 403’s. VTEC heads are designed to flow more air, so you can leave them stock and they’ll flow well. But as soon as you start putting crazy cams in the vtec head, same thing will happen!!!
Originally posted by teg92
[B]daver you are forgetting that the b20 had about 20-30 more lb-ft of torque till about 6k than the b16. As for needing more work to break higher numbers, thats easy. Check on crowers catalog, speak to any head porter, speak to crane, speak to crower, speak to JG. Running cams with lift that big without having a ported head or valve job is shooting yourself in the foot.
The head is designed to flow a certain amount of air. It can do more to a certain extent (403’s), anything past that and the extra lift and extra air will cause more turbulence then anything. That’s why crower and crane and JG all specify you NEED serious head work and ECU tuning etc with anything higher than 403’s. VTEC heads are designed to flow more air, so you can leave them stock and they’ll flow well. But as soon as you start putting crazy cams in the vtec head, same thing will happen!!! [/B]
I don’t understand how come everyone misinterpretes everything i say haha. As far as i can tell my last post covered everything teg92 says i didn’t realize.
I meant that if you want to get some even higher revving power than what those charts depicted on the b20 (with those cams - 404s), then you’d have to take care of that bottlenecking head, with some port work. I assumed that that b20 head had no port work because it didn’t say it did in the mods list. Its not MY engine.
How am i forgetting that the b20 has more torque than the b16 before 6k? that’s what i meant about all the spinning in a light car…???..the extra tork is the whole point of the engine
d
sorry dave i must have read it too quick… as long as we agree 
I just didn’t remember you talking much about the awesome torque… my bad!!
i can’t remember the mods, but newman made a post once about his b16 stripped civic hatch vs. his b20 full int. integra. I recall that the b16 was more modified than the b20, though, and that the b20 car won the 1320’.
I can’t remember all teh detail and i may have misplaced a few, but that post really sold me on the b20.
d
well a b20 would be a great option, but for the extra money [$500?] u could buy camshafts. and if you want to up the c/r youd have to drop about $400-$500 and get some JE high comp pistons while if you have the b18a block all you do is slap some CTR/ITR pistons and you have a little higher compression with that. but if you want to be the fast NONVTEC then yea a b20 would be the most definite option. but for now i think we just want to be a FAST nonVTEC. if that made ne sense. peas
Well what I am going to do is when I get my project b20 block, I will compare the price of a set of pistons & rods to the price of a crower stroker kit. I wouldn’t mind being first to stroke a b20
Originally posted by teg92
Well what I am going to do is when I get my project b20 block, I will compare the price of a set of pistons & rods to the price of a crower stroker kit. I wouldn’t mind being first to stroke a b20
dat b tight. a 2.2 liter B-series
We built a 95 LS with a ported head (DPR), RC monster-bore T-body (66 or 68mm), Longer valves (so that rocker geometry is correct with reground cams), adjustable cam gears, and some big cams. The head was milled and the engine runs at about 10:1 compression. He also has DC headers, Thermal exhaust, iceman intake, no cat. We tried 3 different cam sets, a medium grind from DPR that made 153 hp at the wheels, but still idled good (all dyno numbers are from a Dynojet dyno), a set of JG 301s that made 171 hp to the wheels, but we had to increase
fuel pressure and the idle sucked. The last set was the newer Gude cams and they made 174 hp to the wheel, and their idle sucked too. Actually, it sounds kinda cool, like blup, ba, bup-bup, bup, bup, bup-ba. This particular car runs mid 13s on slicks. He ran back to back 13.55s at 98+ mph with some weight reduction. If you consider a 14% loss of power through the drivetrain, this particular B18B makes around 202 hp at the flywheel. (his rpm limit was removed, and peak power is about 7500 rpm. Torque was about 138 or 139 to the wheels (161 ft lbs to the flywheel).
i know this an old topic but i thought some people might want to know that it is possible to make a 13second LS. go nonVTEC power :defend:
Originally posted by 2simplex
[B]
i know this an old topic but i thought some people might want to know that it is possible to make a 13second LS. go nonVTEC power :defend: [/B]
anything is possible.
but unless you have a second “reliable” car to drive to work everyday, i’d rather stick w/ my VTEC engine.
13sec LS
I can’t be the only person here that has seen this article. I have a copy of Honda Tuning from SCC dated like 1998 or early 99. The article showed the 3rd gen hatch teg “all motor LS” running consistant 13’s. It was also built by DPR. He bragged about it too. Stickers all over the car, All Motor, LS no NOS no turbo. The car was red and I believe was a 94 or 95. Interior gutted, skinnies in the rear and slicks up front. I think this is the motor that came out of that car. Anyone else see this article?
Originally posted by teg92
Its definately possible in a hatch on slicks. Please don’t under estimate non vtec setups! I think 2002 will be a big year for LS’s! A lot of guys locally and on the boards seem to be building up some nice engines!
That’s exactly what I thought. In a hb. The guy didn’t specify, probably to make it sound beefy, but you won’t break 13’s in a G2 with that setup alone.
laopadak; Honda Tuning is usually a joke. You just can’t believe everything you read. You have to evaluate the setup and calcute it yourself. Heck look at Super Street…one of the most famous import mags helped out the producers for F&F and F&F was such a freaking joke. They didn’t get any info right! :read:
Re: 13sec LS
Originally posted by laopadak
I can’t be the only person here that has seen this article. I have a copy of Honda Tuning from SCC dated like 1998 or early 99. The article showed the 3rd gen hatch teg “all motor LS” running consistant 13’s. It was also built by DPR. He bragged about it too. Stickers all over the car, All Motor, LS no NOS no turbo. The car was red and I believe was a 94 or 95. Interior gutted, skinnies in the rear and slicks up front. I think this is the motor that came out of that car. Anyone else see this article?
yes there is a few b18b all motor’s running consistant 13’s, but this took a lot of work, and those cars are basically built for the dragstrip… wouldn’t want to attempt rush hour traffic comming home from work in one of those 
Re: Re: 13sec LS
wouldn’t want to attempt rush hour traffic comming home from work in one of those
I don’t know about that…it would cut my travel time by 20 minutes LOL. Which is why I prefer driving the Civic to work…I cut my travel time by AT LEAST 10 minutes. 
Re: Re: Re: 13sec LS
Originally posted by VTC_GsR
[B]
I don’t know about that…it would cut my travel time by 20 minutes LOL. Which is why I prefer driving the Civic to work…I cut my travel time by AT LEAST 10 minutes. [/B]
not if you drive by yourself and you can’t get in the carpool lane!
Re: Re: Re: Re: 13sec LS
Originally posted by 92GS-R
[B]
not if you drive by yourself and you can’t get in the carpool lane! [/B]
There was a guy here in FL that was caught with a blow up doll in the carpool lane. He bought it just so he could drive on that lane to work and got busted! 
:loser: