I’ve been spending the last week here reading all of the great information posted here. A lot of knowledge in these pages. I’ve been an integra owner for 5 years now. First my 89 RS and now a 92 GS. My current task is to rebuild my GS to it’s old glory. My final goal is to have a daily driver that will go to the track only on occasions on open track days. I’ve been reading the LSVTEC conversion posts with interest but I have a few questions. What are the actual increase that this does? Any DYNO numbers to back it up? I was reading engine spec and I see part of the increase is going to come from the smaller CC Combustion Chambers( 45 CC vs 42.7CC for the VTEC) that should bring the compression up to about 9.6-9.7:1 if my quick math is right. That should be good for a few horses. I know that the VTEC Design is much more effiecent than a regular DOHC design. But any guesses on how much? I was leaning towards just rebuilding a short block with 10:1 pistons and having my friend extrude hone the heads and intake because of the ease and less troubles.
My final combo will be this:
1.8L
CAI
Header
Exhaust
Lightened Flywheel
and possibily new cams too(depends on the cash flow)
Goal:
HP under 6K RPM(I never rev motors past that)
Torgue under 4.5K RPM
Long range durability
Good fuel economy.
Let me know some thoughts on this. I know I’ve been long winded here
grab a b20z bottom end, run high compression pistons, upgrade the rods for extra strength. then add a b16 head and make it a crvtec… nice and torquey with a sweet spot on top of the power band (vtec).
you can find a b20 for $800-$1000. so, just add that to the price of an ls/vtec like you’re talking about. Which brings the price up to a minimum of about $3500 (assuming you assemble the motor yourself, install the motor yourself and the only labor you pay for is machine shop stuff).
EEEEEKKKKKK…that is more then I paid for my whole car. Does anyone have the Dyno results for a combo like that?? I would hope that it is over 200 HP to the wheels…
Originally posted by bmw88rider EEEEEKKKKKK…that is more then I paid for my whole car. Does anyone have the Dyno results for a combo like that?? I would hope that it is over 200 HP to the wheels…
how long have you owned your car? how long have you been researching engine mods? because it seems to me like you’re making one vital error in your thinking. Hp is not that cheap, and not that easy to attain. I know, doesn’t sound fun… but its true.
it might put down over 200whp (realize there is a difference between whp and bhp), but that will depend on MANY factors. Like what head you use, what intake manifold you use, what cams you use, what pistons you use, what engine management you use… and upgrading all that stuff costs more money. 200 all motor whp is not exactly a walk in the park when you’re talking about our honda engines. Take for example dan’s car (G2Guru). His car is running a little over 200whp, its a b18c1 w/ itr internals and head as well as just about everything else you could imagine. All of which comes at quite a heafty price tag. But i can tell you this, you won’t be pulling 200whp if you only plan on spending $3500 on the engine.
if you ever want to make any decent power you’re going to have to start reving higher… a LOT higher. High revs are not a bad thing, i rev my stock engine to redline all the time… our motors are made to handle revs. Redline on most stock vtec engines is 7.5-8.5k!!! Vtec makes most of its power way up there.
I took a ride in dan’s car this past weekend (he shifted at about 9k rpms). Trust me, rpms are a good thing!!! a VERY wonderful thing. It was literally amazing how well the motor pulled continuously throughout the revs… all the way up to the top end!! (watching the stock tach reach 8k, then just stop as he continued to rev higher was quite a sight).
Thanks for the info. I’ve had the car for 4 years now. It’s been a good ride. I haven’t done any mods on it yet and to be honest I’m just now looking at options. I’m a newbie to the Acura tuning world. :shy: Haven’t have a true modded ride since my supercharged mustang all the way back in 92…lol Seriously though, Thanks for all of the info all. It’s been great and educational. I won’t start building the motor till after I get settled in Vegas. I’m leaning towards a stock combo…extrune honed head with 10:1 Arias pistons and crane 403 cams. With that combo and the reduction of about 150 or so pounds, I think I will get the response and performance I’m looking for. Unfortunately, I would love to build up a nice 170-180 WHP ride( I do know the difference)…but the budget says house first.
Originally posted by bmw88rider Thanks for the info. I’ve had the car for 4 years now. It’s been a good ride. I haven’t done any mods on it yet and to be honest I’m just now looking at options. I’m a newbie to the Acura tuning world. :shy: Haven’t have a true modded ride since my supercharged mustang all the way back in 92…lol Seriously though, Thanks for all of the info all. It’s been great and educational. I won’t start building the motor till after I get settled in Vegas. I’m leaning towards a stock combo…extrune honed head with 10:1 Arias pistons and crane 403 cams. With that combo and the reduction of about 150 or so pounds, I think I will get the response and performance I’m looking for. Unfortunately, I would love to build up a nice 170-180 WHP ride( I do know the difference)…but the budget says house first.
you’re definitely starting on the right track. i’m really glad to hear that your motor work is a while off, and that you’re trying to learn what you can now. All too many people come to the club as newbies and expect to get all the advice immediately and throw a motor in within a month or so.
list whatever you think you have planned, cause i (or someone else) might be able to help you out. also feel free to email me with any questions.
first off, i suggest going with a much higher compression than 10:1. Compression is one of the best ways to get hp, so take full advantage of it. I’d suggest 11:1. Thats what i plan on running in my motor, and thats here in cali where we can only get 91 octane (not sure what you can get in nevada). Extrude honing is a good idea, i’ve heard great things about the process, but still haven’t heard from anyone who has actually done it. You may want to look into www.portflow.com, they do great portwork. Also, maybe i’m mistaken but i think you may have meant crower 403 cams. The 403’s are a great cam, strong but streetable.
170-180whp is almost out of range if you’re staying with the b18a engine. That is, if you want it to still be a street car.
if you run:
-11:1 compression (jdm itr pistons --no need for fancy aftermarket pistons)
-full rebuild/balance
-shot peened rods
-arp rod bolts
-portflow headwork
-crower 403 cams (with accompanying valvesprings and retainers)
-skunk2 intake manifold
-ported throttle body
-i/h/e
-chipped ecu
-apex afc
i would expect 160-170whp, and it should be a reliable engine. Of course you won’t be able to do it all at once (afterall, you’re like most of us and aren’t full-o-cash). I’d build the engine first, focus on the bottom end and transmission (get a vtec tranny, and a good clutch). After the engine is built you can do the more "bolt on stuff like intake manifold, h/e, throttle body, ecu…
Ok…More questions…when you say VTEC tranny, you aren’t talking about the 94+ tranny are you? Or what would work for a good cable VTEC Tranny? Yes, I meant crower. I need to not post as I’m going to bed. Actually I’m going with the extrune hone because I have a hookup from when I use to build IMCA Modifieds while in college for Harris racing. I get really good deals. I can have the head and intake done for less than they are talking for the head work at the place you mentioned. I love the process. I had it done on my SHO and loved the results. I’m surprised that no one really uses it here. I also saw you mention 11:1 ITR pistons. Those are the factory HI PO stuff in japan right? Who sells that kinda stuff here in the states? BTW 91IntegGS Nice looking car. I like the clean unassuming look. Looks like a really good home for your b17 when it is done.
there are a few cable vtec trannies out there. You just have to be careful, because the tranny cases of the vtec and non vtec are labeled the same… its just the gearing is different.
here are your choices:
y1/j1/s1, from an 89-91 b16a engine (jdm xsi or civic sir)
ys1 from a 92-93 jdm b16a (has optional lsd)
ys1 from a 92-93 usdm gsr (b17a engine)
Thats great that you get the deal on the extrude hone. I actually have some questions for you. How much material does it actually remove? I know the basic process and how it works (sounds like a great method), i’ve just always wondered how much “porting” it does in relation to how much “polishing” it does. Also, do they run through different grits? and go progressively finer? or is it a simple one stage type thing? What kinds of prices do they ask (not your prices… but what i’d have to pay)?
now that i look at it, i gave you the wrong number. Jdm itr pistons in a b18a only give 10.8:1 compression… sorry for the wrong info. For your future compression ratio questions, consult: http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/compcalc/compcalc.html To achieve 11:1 you could use the jdm itr pistons and remove one layer from the head gasket.
Thanks for the compliments on the car. hehe, right now it definitely has the power to acurately back up the “unassuming” look it has (well, actually it still looks faster than it is unfortunately). But like you said, hopefully a good home for my b17a! man i’m excited.
you never rev honda motors past 6k rpm??
if you want ls vtec most of the power is found past 6-9 rpm, and even on my old ls motor when i was racing i would shift at 6500 -6800 rpms ,and now with my vtec setup i shift at 8,000 when racing , itreat my motor good with mobil one syntec and only run it high rpms like once or twice a month,if you want a motor that has alot of power below 6,000 rpms that would be v8 muscle cars
It’s usually a 3 pass process. Each of the passes are with an abrasive clay type substance. The first pass is the cutting pass. The amount of material taken off is enough to smooth out the “poor” head designs and and will depend on application. The second is a finishing pass and the third is a polishing pass. A demo my friend uses is he has a stock cast manifold and will pour water into it. Well, the water usually never makes it out or if it does it’s in a drop here or a drop there. when he does the same thing with a finished product, the water flows in a stream. Just like an exhaust system, the smoother the flow, the greater the horse power. The great thing about this process is that it will cover everywhere in the piece that is being done where a good port and polish job will still leave areas untouched just because they just can’t get to them. IMHO I think this is the best kind of system possible. We built motors for the engine dyno. Same motor setup but the only difference was that the head and the intake of one were extrune honed and the other ones were ported and polished by a reputable craftsman. The extrune honed setup beat the P & P ones 11 HP and 9 FT LBS of torque. Definately nothing to sneeze at. As for cost…Well, the real cost comes because each piece needs it’s own Jig built for the process to be completed. For a one off piece, My friend will charge in the $800-900 range depending on the item. But, if you find a place that does them in volume, I’ve seen heads done for as low as $350 and intakes for $200. One final thing, There is a quality issue here too. The Extrune Hone process is much less likely to had a “bad” job done since the process is very easy to replicate and get uniform results. Were as a P&P job is widely varied. You never know what the final results will be. The guy that is working on your part may have just had a fight with his GF ETC. and just not care that day.
Disclaimer: I do not work for a company that does Extrune Honing or am I advertising for them. I am just sharing my 2 cents.
i really like the extrude hone idea for a couple reasons. Like you said, it gets the entire inside, nothing is left untouched. And also because its porting/polishing with a liquid. Because its a liquid it has a lot more of the flow characteristics of the air that will be flowing through it. So, it carves away more material in the places where it needs it (takes the path that the air would like to take). Plus, its directional, meaning it makes all the cuts in the direction of flow.
I’m not really sure how much material is removed on a normal port job, and so i’m not sure how the extrude hone process compares in that aspect. I’d like to see some dyno results for honda parts. As i’m sure you’ve figured out by now hp differences between the two can make huge differences. You can get a lot of power from simple bolt ons with domestics, but not hondas. Typically stock honda parts are pretty damn good pieces. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if because of the design and cast of honda heads you wouldn’t see such a drastic difference between extrude hone and pp —but who knows, i wish there was some info out there on this.
and like you said, port jobs can be sketchy. But thats typically if you trust a local guy. Gude/Bullfrog and especially Portflow will give you very consistent work.
also, one thing to think about. the 94+ heads have slightly larger ports in them. this is good for about an extra 2hp. So, you may consider even getting a 94+ head to start out with, then have the extrude honed. just an idea.
Well, I know I will have it done to my motor when I get that far. Looks like my budget may have just gone up… The company I work for is slowly closing my division but I got something lined up. I was talking to my boss and he told me that he would lay me off when he could as close to the day I wanna quit…cha ching. That is going to be a $4000 budget for integra building. Got to love that. I was remembering today back when I bought my integra, there was a Del sol for sale with the b16 motor in it. I took it for a test drive. I remember that it was a little doggish under about 4K then above that it would rip you head off. I was impressed with the motor but not the car so I got the integra instead. Does anyone have handy the weight difference between our G2’s and the SI VTEC del sols? I would figure that they are about the same. It just got me thinking with the cost of a complete motor package in the 2300-2400 range, That would be close to what I would spend on a good LS rebuild. then add the ITR cams and Intake along with a good header…I would have a nice package there too. If it isn’t obvious, I’m just exploring options here. And getting a good education along the way. I find it hard to believe that these motors only have as they say 20-60K KM on them. I know from my trip to Japan that they don’t drive as much there but still. Here is another thing I found odd. All of the good JDM distributors are in CA but it is illegal to install a JDM motor there due to smog. I know it is to save money shipping but still, just an odd insight.
Oh and by the way, the comparision I was talking about was with a SBC. Going to college in the middle of a cornfield(Iowa State) There was no import scene. I had the only truely built import in the city. It was a 89 Dodge Colt GT with a 4g63 turbo motor dropped into it. Nice little package. 2100 lbs on the scales 208 WHP. But, you had to watch out…Step on the gas at the wrong time and you could be on the sidewalk. Definately a handful. But now I have seen the light and come to the land of Acura…please forgive my previous sins…lol
I’ve been reading the LSVTEC conversion posts with interest but I have a few questions. What are the actual increase that this does? Any DYNO numbers to back it up? I was reading engine spec and I see part of the increase is going to come from the smaller CC Combustion Chambers( 45 CC vs 42.7CC for the VTEC) that should bring the compression up to about 9.6-9.7:1 if my quick math is right. That should be good for a few horses. I know that the VTEC Design is much more effiecent than a regular DOHC design. But any guesses on how much? I was leaning towards just rebuilding a short block with 10:1 pistons and having my friend extrude hone the heads and intake because of the ease and less troubles.
Actually I’m going with the extrune hone because I have a hookup from when I use to build IMCA Modifieds while in college for Harris racing. I get really good deals. I can have the head and intake done for less than they are talking for the head work at the place you mentioned. I love the process. I had it done on my SHO and loved the results. I’m surprised that no one really uses it here. I also saw you mention 11:1 ITR pistons. Those are the factory HI PO stuff in japan right? Who sells that kinda stuff here in the states? BTW 91IntegGS Nice looking car. I like the clean unassuming look. Looks like a really good home for your b17 when it is done.
The company I work for is slowly closing my division but I got something lined up. I was talking to my boss and he told me that he would lay me off when he could as close to the day I wanna quit…cha ching. That is going to be a $4000 budget for integra building. Got to love that. I was remembering today back when I bought my integra, there was a Del sol for sale with the b16 motor in it. I took it for a test drive. I remember that it was a little doggish under about 4K then above that it would rip you head off. I was impressed with the motor but not the car so I got the integra instead. Does anyone have handy the weight difference between our G2’s and the SI VTEC del sols? I would figure that they are about the same. It just got me thinking with the cost of a complete motor package in the 2300-2400 range, That would be close to what I would spend on a good LS rebuild. then add the ITR cams and Intake along with a good header…I would have a nice package there too. If it isn’t obvious, I’m just exploring options here. And getting a good education along the way. I find it hard to believe that these motors only have as they say 20-60K KM on them. I know from my trip to Japan that they don’t drive as much there but still. Here is another thing I found odd. All of the good JDM distributors are in CA but it is illegal to install a JDM motor there due to smog. I know it is to save money shipping but still, just an odd insight.