B17A1 Build plans: help (thoughts, opinions) needed

ASSISTANCE Hybrids & Advanced Aftermarket Engine Performance
21

So a small change in plans. I finally got in touch with Endyn again and talked with Larry at some length. I think I’m going to go with the DHPS head. As I mentioned above, it is actually about the same price as what I paid for this used head plus a P+P. My rocker arms are good and pretty much everything else is being replaced so it doesn’t really matter what core I use.

I did get a chance to talk to the local builder near me and he basically said that balancing a Honda OEM rotating assembly was essentially a waste of money because they are so well balanced from the factory. He went on to say that especially for a 8500rpm car, after 100k miles you could open up the bottom end and there would be no difference between that and one that did not have the assembly balanced. Cool. Check another thing off my list that can just be chalked up to growing up watching shows on V8 performance. I guess they don’t have a Dyno, but the guy on the phone said he does tuning on other people’s dynos. He sounded kind of like a prick though, so I’ll probably find someone in Ohio or Kentucky…

Alright, new build list below:

22

What you were told about the balancing is prettymuch correct. It doesn’t take a whole lot to balance a Honda motor… what you’ll want to take care of are the rods and pistons if you went aftermarket… if using the oem rods/pistons you mentioned, you’d probably be good not having it balanced.

And with the piston skirt coating, I’ve also heard good things about it… not that exact company, but with teflon coatings on pistons in general. For the price, I’m sure the benefits are worth it.

Updated parts list? Don’t mind me picking it apart, I just want to see the motor built to meet the expectations you have.

23

Unified. I want you to pick it apart! I really appreciate the time you and Colin have both put into giving me your thoughts.

We had a big storm here last night that killed my power last night which is why I didn’t put this up earlier. I’ve bolded my last few questions below some parts.

I’m putting prices on stuff in case someone is curious later. Stuff like the IM, intake, headers and possibly cams I’ll be buying used, but I have put new prices below just as a reference.

Some kind of smooth “cold air” intake. ($250)
Stock TB taper-bored to 62mm by MaxBore ($100)
ITR intake manifold ($300)
A decently made Try-Y style header wiht 60mm or 2.5" collector ($600-$1200)
(The Skunk2 looks decent, but the O2 bung doesn’t cover all 4 cylinders)
RS*R Ex-Mag exhaust ($600)

Endyn DHPS head with GSR combustion chambers ($700)
(Cleaned up and ready to go)
OEM/stock rocker arms ($0)
OEM/stock valves (pulled from new OEM heads by Endyn) (~$50-100 ?)
OEM/stock valve springs seats, keepers ($0)
new OEM valve stem seals ($25)
Endyn Springs with seat pressures set by Endyn ($250)
Cromoly retainers ($70)
OEM LMA ($175)
OEM Headgasket ($60)
CTR camshafts ($600)
Toda cam gears ($300)

Hone and surface block (~$225)
Polished stock crank ($40)
(good idea for this price, right?)
Stock Rods shot peened ($20 ?)
(probably a good idea too, right? Does Crower still do this?)
P30 pistons,rings and wrist pins ($300)
Piston skirts coated in solid film lubricant ($70)
OEM main and rod bearings ($175)
ARP Hardware (rods, mains, head) $250
(Head bolts are a given, ARP main and rod hardware is recommended too, right?)
I’ve heard something about having to machine the rods to use ARP hardware, is this true?

Misc gaskets, hoses, etc. ($300)
Injector Cleaning and balancing ($100)
Hondata S300 with ECU ($650)

Static compression should end up about 11.2:1-11.4:1

Grand Total: (~$4200 to get it back on the road, $6000-$7000 to perform all mods listed+tuning). I didn’t include timing belt, tensioner pulley and spring, and water pump, but I do have those already.

EDIT: forgot ITR flywheel: $240
Street clutch (probably ACT): $450
didn’t bother to add them to the total.

24

Absolutely false. You ALWAYS get the rotating assy balanced no matter what parts you’re using. There’s no 100% sure fire way to know your bottom end is going to move like it should unless you get it balanced, and i’m talking take all the pistons, rings, rods, bearings, pins, crank, pulley, and flywheel to the machine shop (which should ask for all of it anyway), and have them weigh and balance EVERYTHING, stock or not.

DO NO TAKE SHORTCUTS. And find a new machine shop. He’s full of shit telling you what he did. Ppl like that make me so mad. What do you honestly think happens at eight thousand five hundred rpms? After 100k the engien has been through a lot of wear and tear. Bearings are worn down, seals are old, etc etc. Why would anyone NOT want to make SURE things are going to function as they should, especially with a new build focused on performance. Find a reputable shop that can put you in touch with a machinist who knows what he’s talkign about.

And contact RS Machine for pistons. You can get a p30 with coating for a great price. Also you do not need aftermarket retainers. just use oem ones. the advantage to aftermarket ones aren’t worth it. you save weight enough for 100rpms or so, but they have a higher fail rate than oem. oem is fine.

25

As is evident in my posts above, I don’t know a lot about this stuff. Thanks for chiming in. I’ll get in touch with RS Machine and see what kind of deal they can get me on those OEM pistons with a coating applied.

I’m not sure if I mentioned it in that post, but this same guy said that on average, the cranks they spin up are out of balance by 2 grams and the worst one he had ever seen was 6 grams.

Is this a lot?

Since the only thing that shop will be doing is honing my cylinders, surfacing my block and possibly polishing my crank, I’m not really worried about them (even if the guy on the phone was kind of a douche). I know that their equipment is newer than the machine shop I know of in Bloomington, and I’ve worked a mill before so I know that it isn’t that difficult to put a good surface on something as long as the mill is actually installed properly and truly flat. Plus, if it is computer controlled, it is going to be very hard to fuck up. By contrast, the machine shop by my house has WWII era equipment. I’m sure those old codgers know what they are doing, but I don’t trust their equipment.

At 8500 RPMS, I think what happens is the same stuff that happens at 7500 rpm. Except faster. :wink:

I know that an imbalance can cause a wobble and lead to premature wear to my bearings but I also know how to check for that kind of wear while I’m disassembling the engine. That vibration is also energy that is just wasted in extraneous movement and heat. But, while the final build may actually make power up to 8200 rpm, I will rarely spool it up that much. I’m just not that guy anymore. I won’t be doing any quarter mile runs and if I do any racing, it is just going to be some SOLO I auto-xing once a month. I will be weighing the old piston/rod/ring combos and the new piston/rod/ring combos to see if there is any significant difference in weight between the two sets. If there is, I will certainly revisit the idea of getting the assembly balanced; but for my needs/goals I just think the money can be better spent elsewhere.

I think there is a fine line to walk when doing any build as to where do you draw the line. I could certainly save some money in a lot of areas like using ACL instead of OEM bearings, not getting the block surfaced or honed professionally and taking out the crank or messing with the main bearings at all or in general just checking clearances and only replacing with new parts when necessary.

I’m not 100% convinced either way about the crank though. Do you have some kind of evidence or multiple anecdotes about VTEC Honda engines having issues or bearing failure as a result of reving up to 8000 rpms on a stock crank with replacement stock pistons? The only convincing argument with ‘evidence’ I’ve heard is from a guy who has balanced lots of Honda cranks and come to the conclusion that it is typically unnecessary based on what he has seen. I mean, he did say he would be happy to do it, but that he felt the Honda cranks were good enough as is…

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[QUOTE=buymysoul;2155570]As is evident in my posts above, I don’t know a lot about this stuff. Thanks for chiming in. I’ll get in touch with RS Machine and see what kind of deal they can get me on those OEM pistons with a coating applied.

I’m not sure if I mentioned it in that post, but this same guy said that on average, the cranks they spin up are out of balance by 2 grams and the worst one he had ever seen was 6 grams.

Is this a lot?

Since the only thing that shop will be doing is honing my cylinders, surfacing my block and possibly polishing my crank, I’m not really worried about them (even if the guy on the phone was kind of a douche). I know that their equipment is newer than the machine shop I know of in Bloomington, and I’ve worked a mill before so I know that it isn’t that difficult to put a good surface on something as long as the mill is actually installed properly and truly flat. Plus, if it is computer controlled, it is going to be very hard to fuck up. By contrast, the machine shop by my house has WWII era equipment. I’m sure those old codgers know what they are doing, but I don’t trust their equipment.

At 8500 RPMS, I think what happens is the same stuff that happens at 7500 rpm. Except faster. :wink:

I know that an imbalance can cause a wobble and lead to premature wear to my bearings but I also know how to check for that kind of wear while I’m disassembling the engine. That vibration is also energy that is just wasted in extraneous movement and heat. But, while the final build may actually make power up to 8200 rpm, I will rarely spool it up that much. I’m just not that guy anymore. I won’t be doing any quarter mile runs and if I do any racing, it is just going to be some SOLO I auto-xing once a month. I will be weighing the old piston/rod/ring combos and the new piston/rod/ring combos to see if there is any significant difference in weight between the two sets. If there is, I will certainly revisit the idea of getting the assembly balanced; but for my needs/goals I just think the money can be better spent elsewhere.

I think there is a fine line to walk when doing any build as to where do you draw the line. I could certainly save some money in a lot of areas like using ACL instead of OEM bearings, not getting the block surfaced or honed professionally and taking out the crank or messing with the main bearings at all or in general just checking clearances and only replacing with new parts when necessary.

I’m not 100% convinced either way about the crank though. Do you have some kind of evidence or multiple anecdotes about VTEC Honda engines having issues or bearing failure as a result of reving up to 8000 rpms on a stock crank with replacement stock pistons? The only convincing argument with ‘evidence’ I’ve heard is from a guy who has balanced lots of Honda cranks and come to the conclusion that it is typically unnecessary based on what he has seen. I mean, he did say he would be happy to do it, but that he felt the Honda cranks were good enough as is…[/QUOTE]

He’s wrong. Sorry.

The age of the equipment shouldn’t matter if they are maintained well, and the guy running it knows what he’s doing. I’d take old equipment that’s helped produced 1500whp drag cars over new equipment any day of the week. You need to do some more research and actually read through articles on team integra for example and learn about honda rotating assy. They are top notch of course, but it’s baffling to me that’d you’d choose to save money by NOT balancing the rotating assy.

If VTEC honda engines had issues reving above 8k, why does the ITR do so? Why does the S2k do so? ALL honda cranks are forged units capable of reving high. It’s just common knowledge. I dunno where you’re getting your info.

Email Larry. I betcha he tells you to get it balanced. That’s what he told me when I asked him. That’s what every single reliable engine builder both local and national i asked told me to do. That’s just part of building an engine. It’s one of those things that shouldn’t even come into question. Same goes for polishing the crank. Why anyone would not consider it is beyond me.

Good luck with your engine man. I really hope things work out for you.

:up:

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As far as the machine shop close to me goes; I can assure you that no 1500 HP engines have been built there ha ha. I didn’t mean to be disparaging about WWII equipment in general. That is the kind of stuff I used when I worked in a machine shop and certainly falls into the old adage of ‘they don’t make em like they used to’. But our plane was out of true because, as you say, it wasn’t kept up properly (this wasn’t an engine machine shop, it was the in-house shop at a nuclear research facility I used to work at). Also, sharp tool heads are essential to turning out good finished product, I just don’t think the machine shop close to my house has the volume or profit revenue to actually keep (or desire to keep) that kind of high level of machining. It just isn’t necessary for the type of work that they typically do. The machine shop in Indy, however, does machine work on…well, Indy cars and super high dollar K series builds. They have a decent reputation, and I suspect that if people were loosing the head/block seal on their engines because they did shoddy work, that info would be reflected on the BBB website.

He may be wrong about his conclusions. I will give you that. Is 2 grams a lot for a crank to be out of balance?

I think you may have misinterpreted something I said and you actually emphasis my point here:

[QUOTE=icemanGSR;2155572]
If VTEC honda engines had issues reving above 8k, why does the ITR do so? Why does the S2k do so? ALL honda cranks are forged units capable of reving high. It’s just common knowledge. I dunno where you’re getting your info.
:[/QUOTE]

My point was that Honda cranks are capable of revving high from the factory and since I am building my engine package with a goal of having peak power be at or below 8200 rpm, I don’t see the reason to have my crank balanced if the piston/rod combo I am using is the same weight as stock. As far as me not considering it…I did consider it; that’s why we’re discussing it!

I have read through most of the ‘articles’ on Team-Integra. I think it is obvious from many of my posts in this exact thread. If there is an article about balancing crankshafts and the importance of doing so, I have yet to find it. I did find this where Michael Delaney quotes a couple top engine builders that only talk about the importance of balancing externally balanced engines and then makes this conclusion: “we have internally balanced engines. you should always balance the crank in a bottom end rebuild regardless of the brand of piston or how heavy it is relative to other brands.” based on no evidence or any other opinion than his own.

Then there are these threads about harmonic dampers and how getting a pulley that is not one is stupid. But I must have overlooked the one which discusses how Honda VTEC cranks need to be balanced with evidence to back it up. It looks to me like the general consensus is that Honda cranks are very well balanced from the factory and how, if you keep a stock or proper harmonic balancer on there, everything is gravy until at least 9000 rpm. Hell, as you say, this is common knowledge!

I would love to learn more about this. I’m asking in the only place where anyone will respond to my posts. If you have been on team-integra recently, you may have noticed that I had questions about my build up for a week and the only person who replied was some idiot telling me to get cam gears. I finally just gave up and deleted the posts.

I will of course ask Larry about this but we’re just brainstorming here. I appreciate your input, and I hope that you continue to give it and any links to more information is totally welcome. I won’t be getting my head for at least 3 weeks (back-ordered) so there is plenty of time for me to change my mind about this stuff.

28

I’m going to agree with icemanGSR, it is important to get the assembly balanced.

What I meant to convey with my last post is that buymysoul has heard correct information, in that I would be willing to put money on his crank not being out of balance… it takes quite a bit to take a crank out of balance.

But as a whole set, your Crank/Rods/Pistons should be balanced by a machine shop… Rings and bearings? I’ve never heard of getting your bearings balanced lol. They aren’t part of the rotating assembly, as, they dont rotate.

Its definitely a good thing to get the rotating assembly balanced though, simply to reduce vibration and accelerated wear on things as you mentioned. I haven’t seen any aftermarket rods come pre-balanced, except for Oliver rods, which cost an arm and a leg. Your stock rods might not be in balance once you add ARP studs and hone out the big end. Be cautious and get it all checked out.

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Fair enough. I will take “you might as well to be cautious” as a valid argument to get it done.

I found this comment from a mechanical engineering student on a DSM forum and I think he says it nicely: " I can tell you that balancing the rotating assembley is always a good thing no matter how you look at it, but the neccessity of it is another matter."

I wonder if this is all a misunderstanding; I took it for granted that I would need to get the pistons and wrist pins balanced as well as the rods since, as you say, the ARP hardware will change the weight of the big end and, assuming it was done correctly, the completed assemblies would in turn be balanced. (and this is something the guy in Indy recommended, BTW)

My comments and questions above had to do specifically with the crankshaft as well as getting the whole assembly dynamically balanced. I still think the benefit of this to a daily driven Honda engine is negligible (when the individual assemblies and components are balanced) but as unified is getting at; better safe than sorry.

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That’s prettymuch it… Better to be cautious now while its all apart. But for credibility… When we built my brothers B17, the shop owner who we ordered the parts from showed us… he took all four rods out of the box and weighed them. the first three were all within one gram of eachother… the fourth rod was closer to 4 grams different than the others…

But as you were getting at earlier, I dont know how much out of balance is detrimental to an engine… 4 grams? 40 grams? You know? So yea, its best to just have it all checked and at least rest easy knowing its all on the up & up.

31

So the DHPS head has conspicuously disappeared from the Endyn website. I’m going back to my original plan to end up spending more in the long run and get Larry to modify this used head specifically for my goals instead of getting the better flowing new cast DHPS head. Hopefully there will be gains to be seen having more extensive machine work on my head vs. going with the cheap version of the DHPS head.

Unless he finally gives me some answers about his Bump Stix cams, I’m just going to stick with ITR valve springs and cams. Proven, reliable, and I know they won’t be too aggressive. Plus, the engine won’t be in danger of blowing up if i have to drive 100 miles to get it tuned once everything is back together.

I may end up getting Larry to do work on the block as well; but I still haven’t decided if it is worth it to me and this build.

I’m going to use new OEM rod bolts instead of ARP. I won’t be revving any higher than an ITR (which has the same bolt part number) and won’t be doing any endurance racing so I’ll be fine.

I’m not going to bother getting the crank balanced but obviously will get the rods checked and the new pistons/wrist-pins balanced.

I’ve been emailing back and forth with David at SMS products to discuss having him do a header/cat/exhaust setup for me.

I’m also going to go with an ITR clutch/disc setup instead of ACT. Should save $100 or so.

And yes, unified112, I am absolutely going with the new replacement OEM spring style LMAs. Honestly, if I was going to try to save a little $ the first place to do it would be by using ACL bearings instead of OEM, not cheaping out on the LMAs.

Oh, and you guys talked me into it. I saw an ITR IM on ebay and picked it up for $60 or so. I figured at that price I couldn’t go wrong.

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Thats odd about the head disappearing from his website… But for sure you can do some headwork to your stock head and get some great numbers out of it… I mean, you could even go as far as to weld the quench-pads (like a GSR head) and bump up the compression even more. But as far as porting it out, you definitely can get some nice airflow through it.

I’m all for the Type-R cams, because as you said they’re tried and proven. I really haven’t read up on Endyn’s cams, but it would be wise to check for reviews on them and see what type of numbers/reliability people are getting out of them.

The OEM rod bolts should hold up fine on you… But if you’re revving past stock redline, you might want to check into aftermarket main bolts? Unless the B16 and ITR bolts are the same part number are well… You just dont want your crank wobbling or bolts stretching due to the extra revs.

Header wise, my tuner actually vouched for the eBay Tri-Y headers in comparison to shelling out the extra cash for a Bisi header, or even a JDM Type-R header… so if all else fails and you dont want to spend $400+ for a name-brand header, the eBay Tri-Y actually will hold up decently and will pull out some decent power.

MagnaFlow/Carsound make a great cat, 2.5" (P/N: 54956) high-flowing ceramic cat… My tuner also recommended this, even for a street car that needs to pass emissions… They run for about $75 bucks I believe? But the bad is that you need to weld on your own flanges and extend it as needed to fit your setup.

Prettymuch everything else sounds good to me… Oh… another quick note, the OEM and ACL bearings are made by the same manufacturer… As well as King and Calico. Like I mentioned in your other thread, Calicos come stock with a teflon coating on them, since you’re all in to coatings now :stuck_out_tongue:

Sorry for the long rant, I was bored and figured i’d push my opinion onto you hehe. Sounds like a fun build though, im sure you’ll enjoy.

Edit
Heres my cat though, just for reference and out of boredom:

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Bah. I can’t write a short post to save my life.

Don’t all of those other bearing all have the same thickness though? I haven’t cracked open the bottom end yet, but if all the bearings spec out to brown, I’ll consider it.

EDIT: THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS FALSE: Rod bolts are the same for B17 and ITR which is what made me reconsider the ARPs. I don’t plan to have peak power much (if any) higher than an ITR, so yeah, they should be fine as long as everything is clean and lubarific.

If David comes back with a price even close to $400, I’ll buy 3! My impression is that it will be much higher. I’m building this puppy for the ages; I wanna have a couple remnants of the glory days in it in memory of my old LSS. Hell if i could find some old school (and old spec) Toda spec B cams, i’d be all over em. I do appreciate real artisanship and don’t mind paying the price of admission sometimes. I will scope out the eBay header though.

SMSP uses magniflow stuff in his exhausts. I see no compelling reason to use anything else available. I want it to fit good and be as close to stock quiet as possible. And I will most definitely be rocking dual pencil tips.

I think I’m going to be pretty happy with the 11:1 static CR. I know it will work well with everything else i have planned. Plus, for every actual dollar quote Larry has given me, he tells me he looses money at that price. If I get any more machine work done by him, I may bankrupt Endyn! And nobody wants that. :wink:

Now I just gotta save my duckets for these babies and I’ll be ready to roll! Seriously though, how sick would those be on my AGP GS-R? I mean, just seeing people cringe as I drive by would be worth it. :wink:

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Those wheels are… interesting to say the least… I’m cringing at just the thought of it, let alone actually seeing it in person :stuck_out_tongue:

Oh and I was gonna say congrats on the intake manifold… at a STEAL of a price as well… I think I paid $110 for mine about a year ago. Once you have it in your hands and actually compare it to the b16/b17 unit, you’ll just chuckle knowing that you went a better route.

Yeah as far as the bearings, they only come in one size I believe… I didn’t really think about it as I had my setup line-honed and crank polished to have exact tolerances acrossed the board. if you aren’t doing ARP bolts you don’t need a line hone, but then you need to spec out each journal to ensure the correct clearences. Good call.

And I was close to buying an SMSP cat until I found what he wanted for one… was like $220 I believe… but he would have gotten it the length I needed etc, instead I’m doing it myself and saving maybe $40 or so. He definitely knows what he is doing though that’s for sure.

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A couple comments…

  1. Your assumption about the rod bolts is probably a safe one, I upgraded for the hell of it since I didn’t know where I was gonna take the build, and IIRC the rod bolts were only $50. It’s worth some looking into, but in general I would assume that with parts that give extra protection at higher RPM you should be good with ITR. And actually any ITR parts should fair better in a b16a/b17a than they will in an ITR engine. Rod/stroke ratio is better for the b16/b17 engines, so for the most part there should be less strain at the same rpm when compared to a b18a/b18c/b20.

  2. I have no complaints about my Megan 4-1 ITR replica. Although my friend did have it re-welded on the inside to make it stronger, then I ground the welds out to make it smooth again. I got the header basically for free, so I never did any bit time research on what would be best if I were to put some $$ into it. My thought now is that cheap headers are the way to go, I’m going to think of them as a wear part. With how low they hang and the probability of some off track excursions I’m guessing I’m bound to bash it up eventually. I’d hate to destroy a $1000 header due to one lousy spin, especially when that header may only provide 1-2% more hp.

  3. I highly recommend the SMSP high flow cats. My tuner was very pleasantly surprised with it, and said that most of the widely available name brand ones are pretty much crap coughcarsoundcough. It’s probably not a big deal, but I personally will NEVER use anything but a metal (inside) cat again. We put a couple cheap (maybe magnaflow?) cats on our RX7 rally car, those things were destroyed in no time flat. The insides just fell apart and ended up clogging the exhaust system. Took forever to find out that was the problem. Of course that was on a car we were doing rally crosses with, so it did take a beating and I’m sure that’s the main cause for the cats falling apart. But even then, with the super stiff suspension many of us run on Hondas now and in my situation, the chance of running off track, it’s not even worth using anything but a cat with metal inside.

For $149 shipped I got:
2.5" 300 cell spun body high flow cat
3 bolt flange
3 bolt flange gasket
2.5" flared tubing (approx 1.5’)
2.5" floating flange

When the parts arrived I really wasn’t happy with the floating flange, it’s the “slip” style and isn’t OEM at all, so there was no way I was using it.

In this pic you can see the cat, 3 bolt flange, flared tubing, and floating flange:

And if you look at the collector on the header you can sort of see the ball flange I ended up using instead of the floating flange. Here’s the cat all welded up (but before I painted it with high temp black paint):

A 2.5" mandrel bent b-pipe (I’d still use my RS*R axle back) may be one of my next power mods, although I’m very happy with the power I’m making and don’t really see much of a need. A nice custom 3" CAI is definitely at the top of that list.

  1. While I like the “rally” look of those wheels they seem a bit out of place on a DA to me. I’d definitely rock ‘em for novelty value and for shits and giggles, but for that price I think they’re a rip off. They’re MUCH too narrow and are a less than ideal offset. They’d be bitchin’ on a 1st gen CRX though :smiley: (although still quite possibly too narrow)
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[QUOTE=unified112;2158329]
And I was close to buying an SMSP cat until I found what he wanted for one… was like $220 I believe… but he would have gotten it the length I needed etc, instead I’m doing it myself and saving maybe $40 or so. He definitely knows what he is doing though that’s for sure.[/QUOTE]
Here’s their price list. Mine was slightly cheaper since I welded it up myself, but I wanted to do it myself so I knew I got the length right (wasn’t sure of the header fitment and didn’t want to use the 92-93 exhaust extension piece which is normally needed).

37

First off, that cat looks sick man… it turned out very nice, I’m hoping my guy can get mine welded up nicely as well. crosses fingers

But when was the carsound you guys used purchased? I know the ones they’ve mad in the past were horrible and not reliable at all… as you said, basically falling apart and deteriorating quickly. But in their more recent ones they have been greately improved and are much more durable. Both the guy who built my motor, and my tuner (who don’t like eachother at all) have recommended using the Carsound unit… in my eyes, if they agree on something being a solid piece, I peronally trust that as being true.

If it is true that SMSP uses magnaflow cores for their units, the again, I put my trust in said product as being solid and reliable.

Glad we’re getting some other opinions rolling in this conversation so its not just buymysoul and I kicking back and forth ideas lol. thumbs up

Damnit, stop posting so fast! I can’t keep up on my phone lol.

edit
That’s about where I’m at as far as cost with my cat…
$80 for the spunbodied 300cell cat
$15 for the 2.5"triangle flange
$15 for the 2.5" ball-flange
$20 for the 1.5’ of stainless 2.5" pipe

Still need the donut gasket though, and the triangle gasket came with my RS*R exhaust, so we’re about equal as far as cost. Though now I’m curious and somewhat nervous hoping my ceramic cat wasn’t a bad move on my part :\

38

Yeah, my computer has been in the shop so I haven’t been posting much. Been too busy and I only like posting smaller stuff from my phone…

It wasn’t a carsound we used, it was something we got from a muffler shop, I’m not 100% sure what the brand was, but it could have been a magnaflow as I alluded to - but this was 5+ years ago. The commend about carsounds being bad was directed at flow not at build quality or durability. However I can’t personally speak to either of those as I’ve never had one. My tuner basically just told me that all cats rob power, even the high flow ones don’t show much of an improvement over the stock piece - but was pleasantly surprised with how mine seemed not to be very restrictive.

And actually now that we’re talking about cats, I really should mention something else I learned. If you see the cat I made you’ll notice that the cat is closer to the b-pipe than the header. My reasoning for this was to allow the exhaust to “calm down” after exiting the collector before entering the cat AND to allow it to cool ever so slightly more (and thus decrease in volume) before entering the cat. Now, obviously we’re talking inches here so the effect may be minimal - but hey, why not, right? Well, after talking to my tuner he said that it can actually make a pretty big difference where you place your cat. The further back the cat is located the less restrictive it will be. So really it’d be even better to move it further back, as far back as possible! However there’s another side to that, cats work only when they’re good and hot, the further back you move it, the less efficiently it’ll function (regarding cleaning up the exhaust fumes). So, you reach a point where the cat is so far back you’re increasing flow (horsepower) but the cat may not be hot enough to pass smog. Unfortunately I can’t tell you where that point is… But this concept of cat location is something to consider when building your exhaust.

Where did you hear that SMSP uses Magnaflow internals in their cats? I assume you’re referring to Buymysoul’s comment about SMSP using Magnaflow products? Unless I’m mistaken (and the photos I have are not up to date) then that is very much not true. Look at the magnaflow you posted compared to the metal substrate internals pictured in the link I posted. They look nothing alike and my understanding was that the SMSP cats were made in house or at least custom made for them. SMSP does however use/sell Magnaflow mufflers.

There’s a decent amount of info about the SMSP cats on honda-tech, you just need to know where to look. When I was looking (~2yrs ago) they were considered the best high flow cat on the market.

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Why’d you opt for stainless? I’m assuming the cat itself isn’t stainless, in which case you need to at least paint the cat for protection. A full stainless setup would be nice though :slight_smile:

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I went with stainless for the corossion factor… yes I will be painting the entire cat setup, from flange to flange, to make sure that the nasty salt and road grime that Utah gets doesn’t eat at my cat setup… true, the cat itself probably isn’t stainless, but while I was there, I figured I might as well take the extra precaution.

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I was actually wondering about the placement of the cat… because as seen by the pictures you have… When extending the cat, you can either add all the needed length to one side (As you did) or add length to both sides to place the cat in the ‘middle’ of the two flanges. Me and my brother were talking about which would be best… putting more distance between the collector and the cat, or putting the cat right at the collector. Its nice to hear an actual explanation describing the differences it makes.