[QUOTE=armedferret;2266407]Eh, Jesse Jackson does that all the time. :shrug:
Is he an idiot? Sure. Is he a wanton murderer? Newp.[/QUOTE]
Yep, my point exactly. He’s an idiot, but that doesnt get you off the hook. That same idiot carried a gun. I watched that interview and it’s pretty vague, no doubt lawyer trained…
oh i was just driving to make sure I got the address right, got out on foot, and happend to be following the kid. He looked “too casual” in the rain. uh right. I’m glad he had his lawyer present otherwise he would’ve said something stupid.
he wasn’t running… he was more like skipping, quickly? jeezus. his story doesnt make any sense.
That’s the (potential) lie that Zimmerman is going to have to stick with. Phone records show that Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend shortly before the fight started. If she is telling the truth about the content of that call and was able to hear Martin say something along the lines of “Why are you following me?” to Zimmerman, who responded with “What are you doing here?”, this would mean that the two had a face to face confrontation at some point before the fight started. This would make Zimmerman’s claim that he was walking back to his truck and confronted from behind (then sucker punched) by Martin 100% FICTION.
Well then we may as well just convict him of murder if thats the case, right?
Great precedent! Let’s just convict EVERYONE who lies to the police. What could possibly go wrong?
Here’s a shocker: people lie to the police all the time. Just like the police lie to everyone else all the time. Doesn’t make them murderers. Doesn’t mean it’s appropriate to do, of course, but it doesn’t mean they’re guilty of anything othe than being a jackass. :shrug:
Then again, I like how you automatically assume zimmerman is the one who lied, and it’s just impossible for the girlfriend to be lying to strengthen the prosecution’s case.
I didn’t say that, Mr. Strawman. Also notice in my previous post where I said this is clearly a manslaughter case, bro.
Ah. I miss your shitty non-arguments. That’s the good stuff. It’s been a while, boo.
Oh, but good thing that it’s a crime to lie to a judge under oath, which is why Zimmerman’s wife is looking at jail time. They really thought they were slick speaking in code, like nobody has ever tried that before when speaking on a jailhouse telephone. :lol:
I didn’t assume anything. Carefully read my post. I made sure, just because of you, to say that Zimmerman POTENTIALLY lied, and also made sure to say “If [Martin’s girlfriend] is telling the truth about the content of the call…” Never did I say it’s impossible that Martin’s girlfriend was lying. However, as an aside, Martin’s girlfriend’s deposition was taken before Angela Corey was even assigned as special prosecutor, and well before charges were ever filed. Not saying this makes what she says the truth, but it’s not like she came forward after charges were filed to bolster the prosecution’s case.
Again, if anyone wants to debate the merits of this case IN A MATURE MANNER, let me know.
It doesn’t necessarily eliminate the possibility of a sucker punch. Now that I read what I wrote, it could be worded much better.
Zimmerman claimed that Martin asked “Do you have a problem?” and that he said no, reached for his phone, and was then punched. IF (love you, Marky Mark) Martin’s girlfriend’s story is true and that the first and only thing she heard come out of his mouth was Martin asking Zimmerman why he was following him, it changes Martin’s state of mind completely. Rather than their confrontation starting with Trayvon ready to fight, his girlfriend’s deposition puts Martin in a less aggressive state, one where he is initially trying to find out why he’s being followed. A lot of this case is going to be focused on the state of mind of both Martin and Zimmerman.
Zimmerman is trying to paint Trayvon as the one who was aggressive by claiming the dialogue that he has (which sounds straight out of a movie), but it is Zimmerman and ONLY Zimmerman that can back this up. Compare this to what Angela Corey mentioned in the intial statement that came with the 2nd Degree Murder charges. The first thing out of Zimmerman’s mouth assumed that Martin was there to commit burglary, i.e. “We’ve had a lot of break ins recently and this guy looks real suspicious.” He then goes on to call Martin a “fucking punk” and that people like him “always get away.” This was all based on Martin walking the neighborhood looking around. To me (and to the prosecutuion) this shows that it is Zimmerman who was in the aggressive state of mind, ready to be judge and jury to Martin based on very little at all. Also, Martin’s girlfriend said that Zimmerman’s response to Martin’s question was “What are you doing here?” in an aggressive tone. This is a key part of the case. The initial investigator in the case (who submitted a Capias recommending manslaughter charges) specifically mentioned Zimmerman’s failure to attempt to diffuse the situation by identifying himself as a neighborhood watch volunteer. This was BEFORE Martin’s girlfriend’s deposition was taken. Her deposition, if true, further leads one to believe that Zimmerman was negligent by not identifying himself when he had the opportunity, BEFORE the fight started.
That was me being objective. My biases are different. As we all know, I’m a young “black” male originally from the suburbs. I’ve had plenty of situations where people judge me, whether it’s the police or private citizens. I’ll tell you this: if I were walking an unfamiliar suburban neighborhood minding my own business and a “white” guy with a shaved head and a goatee follows me, then starts asking me what I’m doing there in a hostile manner without identifying himself, there’s a good chace that I would punch him in his fucking face if he made the wrong move (and I’m not one to fight AT ALL). There’s a certain point where you have to assume that the person pursuing you is out to do you harm.
I don’t know if that’s what happened in this case, but it sure as shit makes a lot more sense than a 17 year old kid with the muchies talking to his girlfriend, who was undoubtedly running away from Zimmerman, coming back to start a fight with someone. Just sayin…
That link was basically an article describing the recent break-ins in the neighborhood. Zimmerman met with the police and they suggested he start a neighborhood watch. So Zimmerman was out doing his thing another time, and saw some young black kids crawling out a window or carrying stuff or something. Zimmerman calls the police, but stays back and tries to be a good witness. By the time the police show up, bad guys are long gone. Zimmerman is pissed that he is doing what he was told to do, and it still isn’t working. There is more to the article, but that is the jist of it.
Just as a possible explaination for Zimmerman’s aggressiveness and his comments.
[QUOTE=Stu;2267322]That link was basically an article describing the recent break-ins in the neighborhood. Zimmerman met with the police and they suggested he start a neighborhood watch. So Zimmerman was out doing his thing another time, and saw some young black kids crawling out a window or carrying stuff or something. Zimmerman calls the police, but stays back and tries to be a good witness. By the time the police show up, bad guys are long gone. Zimmerman is pissed that he is doing what he was told to do, and it still isn’t working. There is more to the article, but that is the jist of it.
Just as a possible explaination for Zimmerman’s aggressiveness and his comments.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I know about all this and take it into account.
However, just because recent perps have been black males doesn’t mean every black male in the neighborhood who you don’t recognize is there to commit crime. The whole idea is that the police are trained in the proper way to confront and question a suspicious person. Zimmerman is not a police officer, therefore, neighborhood watch or not, he ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT BE GETTING OUT OF HIS CAR WHILE ARMED TO DO THE JOB OF THE POLICE (formally registered neigborhood watchmen aren’t supposed to be armed, FYI). Period. I would argue that Zimmerman’s actions do disservice to all of the responsible folks who carry concealed weapons.
On the subject of concealed weapons… Say that Zimmerman didn’t have his gun on him and the same scenario happened. If Zimmerman sees a 6’+ tall black man whom he thinks is suspicious, do you still see him getting out of the car with the chance that he could end up in a confrontation? I highly doubt it. His gun made him real brave that night…
It’s one thing to be aggressive with calling the police with potential suspects, but it’s another to think any black male walking the streets of your neighborhood is automatically a “fucking punk.”
[QUOTE=kNOwLedGe420;2267430]Oh, I know about all this and take it into account.
However, just because recent perps have been black males doesn’t mean every black male in the neighborhood who you don’t recognize is there to commit crime. The whole idea is that the police are trained in the proper way to confront and question a suspicious person. Zimmerman is not a police officer, therefore, neighborhood watch or not, he ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT BE GETTING OUT OF HIS CAR WHILE ARMED TO DO THE JOB OF THE POLICE (formally registered neigborhood watchmen aren’t supposed to be armed, FYI). Period. I would argue that Zimmerman’s actions do disservice to all of the responsible folks who carry concealed weapons.
On the subject of concealed weapons… Say that Zimmerman didn’t have his gun on him and the same scenario happened. If Zimmerman sees a 6’+ tall black man whom he thinks is suspicious, do you still see him getting out of the car with the chance that he could end up in a confrontation? I highly doubt it. His gun made him real brave that night…
It’s one thing to be aggressive with calling the police with potential suspects, but it’s another to think any black male walking the streets of your neighborhood is automatically a “fucking punk.”[/QUOTE]
So, do you assume that every non black person should be or is afraid to confront a black person 6’+ without a gun? Or, are you saying that one would be stupid or out of his mind to confront a black person without a gun? Why would someone be more brave or less brave b/c he approached a black male? Why should an individual be called brave to approach a black person unarmed in the first place? Sounds like you’re telling me that black people should be approached with caution and you are stereotyping black people out to be dangerous to society simply b/c they’re black. You’re assuming that Zimmerman would have been in a dangerous situation for he did not have his gun with him. Just curious why you didn’t mention Trayvon’s age while describing his physical appearance. It seems that most people jumped on the bandwagon b/c this grown man murdered a 17 year old in cold blood. Should I be less afraid to approach a black male of the same physical size but 17 or younger?
The last sentence to your posts seem to be more personal to your own views. Like when you say “Bottom line - you don’t know what it’s like” and “his gun made him brave that night…”
How old are you?
What do I as a white male not know what it’s like in this day and age of 2012?
Are you saying we don’t know what it’s like to be a young to middle aged black male in the year 2012?
News flash. Police do NOT have the market cornered on what they do for communities; except for no-knock raids maybe. Who the heck do you think you are saying that people have no business protecting their neighborhoods? Since when are we required to wait on a paid official to clean up the streets? They are only even there because the people that write their checks told them to go there. They have zero vested interest beyond being paid to act like they do.
Neither. I’m saying that based on what I know of George Zimmerman so far, he would be afraid to confront a black person 6’+ tall without his gun. Just my humble opinion.
They wouldn’t be.
HAHA.
I would consider someone brave in general who takes it upon himself to pursue/confront a large man who he assumes to be a criminal in the process of committing a felony (burglary) while unarmed. It has nothing to do with him being black, but it has everything to do with the assumption that the person you’re about to leave your car to keep tabs on is a criminal. Criminals tend to be armed, at least where I’m from (and where you’re from as well).
I’m assuming that Zimmerman was putting himself in a dangerous situation whether armed or not. And I believe that I’m correct. As a private citizen, when you pursue someone based on their appearance and end up in a confrontation while failing to identify yourself, it’s pretty dangerous. You are free to disagree.
I didn’t mention his age because it’s not very relevant. I’m not one of those folks who jumped on the bandwagon because Martin was 17 (although it makes the whole case that much more disturbing). This case is interesting to me because I’ve been in Martin’s shoes MANY times. I guess I was lucky enough to never come across anyone who decided to do more than just call the police on me for no reason.
I don’t know, should you?
I turn 29 next month. Does it make anything I said any different?
That’s a pretty vague question. I don’t know you, so how the fuck should I know?
I didn’t say that people have no business protecting their neighborhoods.
What I’m trying to say is that Zimmerman had every right to be armed, to get out of his car and pursue Martin. EVERY RIGHT. However, when you’re not law enforcement and you decide to take matters into your own hands, YOU MUST BE PREPARED TO FACE THE CONSEQUENCES IF THE SITUATION YOU INITIATE ENDS IN DISASTER.
Zimmerman got out of his car and initiated a series of events which led to a confrontation. Said confrontation resulted in the death of another person. For many reasons, which include his failure to diffuse the situation or even attempt to identify himself (says the initial investigator), the state has charged him with a crime.
If you’re not a police officer and you decide to take the law into your own hands, even if you have good intentions (like protecting your neighborhod), you will be held accountable under the law for your actions. It’s that simple.
I’m satisfied with that last answer so far. Just because you are wrong about something, does not forfeit your right to defend yourself from physical violence.
I agree. Zimmerman had the right to defend himself from physical violence whether he started it or not, Florida law is clear about that. However, said physical violence would’ve never taken place nor caused a death had he used better judgment. That was the basis for the Capias that sought to charge him with Manslaughter right after the incident took place.
Personally, I think Zimmerman is likely guilty of Manslaughter. The crazy thing about this case is that Zimmerman’s mouth is probably the only thing that upped his charges to 2nd Degree Murder; had he never called Martin a “fucking punk” on the 911 call, his charges would’ve probably only been Manslaughter. Calling Martin a “fucking punk” is just enough to establish the element of Malice required for 2nd Degree Murder.
Basically:
Malice is a necessary element which distinguishes second degree murder from manslaughter. Malice arises when an act which is inherently dangerous to human life is intentionally done so recklessly and wantonly as to manifest a mind utterly without regard for human life and social duty and deliberately bent on mischief.
