Building a bottom end

INFORMATION Integra Help
1

Today I just went to visit a knowledgeable mechanic. He told me that I have to balance the crankshaft, then after putting everything together, balance the complete bottom end. This lead to some pricey figure.

I’ve also been told I need many special measuring tools to measure various clearances, etc.

Then another mechanic told me that as long as no significant machining was done, I just need a torque wrench, along with just honing the cylinder walls.

NOW, THIS IS THE CASE. I am putting together a bottom end with B16 pistons for higher compression. (spun a bearing on my current bottom end, and have no money)
ALL I WANT is to be able to rev to about 7500 with peace of mind. I presume I need to buy new rings, bearings, etc…

My question is, do I need to do all that balancing with the block? I mean, itz not like I’m revving to 9000rpm…

Basically all I’m doing is changing the pistons, getting new rings, new bearings, etc…

I don’t know too much about rebuilding bottom ends, so any info on what machining is required if any (if necessary, please give a detailed explanation of each item for machining, ie balancing crankshaft, what is that?), what measuring tools I need, etc…

HELP!!!

2

Balancing isn’t necessary, but a nice thing to do while you have it all apart anyway. Balancing usually isn’t that expensive. The shop I have do all of my machine work (great place) does it for $120 USD. This is what I would have done…

Dismantle the block $100 (but you can easily do this yourself)
Clean, retap, and replug the block $60
Deck the block (basically take off .0005" for a fresh surface for the head to mate to) $60
Hone the Cylinders $80
Have the crankshaft mic’d for tolerances (due to your spun bearing there may be damage) $100
If the crankshaft is okay, have it micropolished and again mic’d.
Use plastigauge to see what size bearings you need. $90
Get all new bearings…Thrust, Main, and Rod (Honda or ACL) $150-$200
Have the entire rotating assembly dynamically balanced $120
Assemble block (which you can also do yourself) $100

All of these prices are USD and may vary from shop to shop. So you’re looking at about $860 USD total. But you can save $200 by dismantling and assebling the block yourself. You can also plastigauge the motor yourself to save another $100. Tools you will need if you assemble the block are as follows…

Plastigauge
Feeler Gauges (same type you would use for a valve adjustment)
Piston Ring Compessor
Piston Ring Pliers
Assembly Lube
FULL SET OF BASIC TOOLS (Metric) Sockets…wrenches…extensions…etc.
Torque wrench (9 - 150ft-lbs. range…you may need two different range torque wrenches)
Clean Oil
Honda Bond

I hope this helps Max. Let me know if there’s anything else you need. Best of luck.

3

Thanx for your reply Dan. Yes, I had read the link you sent me, which was very helpful, but I still had these questions in mind.

Also, I should be using a crank off another engine with no damage…so is it just the micropolishing and getting it mic’d? How much just for that? Still $100?

Is it possible to hone the cylinders myself?
I’ve been told it’s easy…

I presume Honda would have different size bearings for measurements obtained from plastiguage accordingly? Can you elaborate on this area?

And can you also elaborate on dynamically balancing the whole rotating assembly?

So basically the block just needs to be honed and decked, everything else is machining the crankshaft…

ok…

THANKS!!!

ARCHIVETHIS

4

ARCHIVETHIS

AMEN to that!!

5

E-DA9:
I completly agree with Dan, but I would have to say that his prices are closer to the low-end as far as machine work is concerned. Depending on your future use and need to stay stock I would suggest going B16 over building the LS, unless you plan on going fully built LS/V. If thats the case then I would just get it all done @ once and sell a kidney or something. Dans list is totally complete except for having to have the head milled/decked as well for a complete seal. Its pretty easy for me to pick his list apart once hes put in all the work :p.
J.

6

Thanks J. I completely agree with you. The shop that I go to has some great prices. Mainly because they do everything in house (including crankshaft grinding). Most shops up here don’t do that. On average, most shops out here charge at least 1/4 more if not double. But luckily in this case, you get more than your money’s worth. And yeah…I left out the head. Mainly because he was asking for bottom end work :p. hehehehe. Chances are if I was doing a rebuild and the head had more than 100,000 miles on it, I would do a lot more than just resurface the head. Maybe some new valve guides, seals, and valve work. If I could afford it, I would get some porting done.

Max, using a crank off a good LS would be wise. But usually you can tell visually if the crank is damaged. Take your fingernail and scrape it laterally across the rod journal. If it feels “rough” at all, it’s damaged. Usually spun rod bearings do damage the crank (speaking from personal experience here). But it’s not always irrepairable. I know you want to stick with your LS. I applaud you for doing so. However, I do have to agree with J. Here. This would be the perfect time to convert to a B16A. It’s a great platform to build on and can be done fairly inexpensive. I can get you a B16A shipped for $1100 complete with motor, transmission (J1, S1), and ECU. Let me know if you need anything else.

7

:smiley:

Thanx J and Dan, but the reason I am asking around on a bottom end build myself is because I’m putting quite a fair bit of money into the head…let’s just say my car should be quite a bit faster than it is now when it runs again.

I need to price out how much the bottom end is gonna cost before I start researching the head.

Regarding the B16, well…you guys know what I think of the B16…:slight_smile:

And I think I’m known here as a B16 hater, lol…
(WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, I am WELL AWARE of the potential of the B16, but I don’t want to spend too much more money on my car, seriously, since I might be leaving town for good within the next 2 years)

Anyways, THANX a lot for all you guys help…I know what to do now.

8

One more thing, what new bolts should I use on the bottom end?

So far, things to buy(correct me or add the list if needed):
Oil pan gasket
oil screen gasket
crank seal (oil pump side and crank pulley side)
oil pump o ring.

Anything else?

9

Max:
For Sure: Headgasket
How many miles are on the engine?
Maybe a new: Water pump, tensioner, oil pump, tensioner spring(many forget about this).
Main pulley Crank bolt(worth the $4)
I like OEM hardware, but ARPs are preferred by most.
Block hoses(i.e. from factory oil cooler to water neck etc…)
hmmm…“I’m out!”
Can you think of anything else Dan?
J.

10

can you please elaborate on the tensioner? To my knowledge it’s just a spring loaded pulley…so can I just replace the spring?

How does this work?

Also, when I get my rotating assembly balanced (the crankshaft and the crank pulley?), do I have to worry anything about weight issues on an AEM crank pulley versus stock pulley?

11

Max, do not use an aluminum crank underdrive pulley. Sure, they make more power. But they don’t have the dampening affects of the stock crank pulley and will take it’s toll on your main bearings after some time.

When you have your block balanced, this is all that’s included…

Crankshaft
Rods
Pistons
Crankshaft Pulley
Flywheel
Clutch Disc
Pressure Plate

The tensioner is actually a bearing that is adjustable with a spring. That’s the best way to describe it. The reason you have to replace the tensioner itself is because the bearing gets loose after time letting the belt walk.

The only other thing I could recommend you replace is the thermostat. Let us know if you have any more questions.

12

Originally posted by G2guru
[B]Max, do not use an aluminum crank underdrive pulley. Sure, they make more power. But they don’t have the dampening affects of the stock crank pulley and will take it’s toll on your main bearings after some time.

When you have your block balanced, this is all that’s included…

Crankshaft
Rods
Pistons
Crankshaft Pulley
Flywheel
Clutch Disc
Pressure Plate

The tensioner is actually a bearing that is adjustable with a spring. That’s the best way to describe it. The reason you have to replace the tensioner itself is because the bearing gets loose after time letting the belt walk.

The only other thing I could recommend you replace is the thermostat. Let us know if you have any more questions. [/B]

Ok, cool.

So do I need new bolts other than head bolts?

Regarding balancing the block, with clutch disc and pressure plate, I’ve also been told that it is just with the complete bottom end, with just the flywheel, no clutch and PP…how does this work, which one is better? I looked through the manual, and I have a question of whether the clutch assembly (CD and PP) come out when you yank an engine…it seems like it, but before I used to be under the impression that only the flywheel comes out…so a question mark here…?

Ok, so let me go over this:

1.) Pull motor apart, send the crankshaft out for balancing (with or without crank pulley?), send the block out to hone the cylinders, deck the block.

2.) and after putting it ALL back together with the appropriate new bearings and new rings, flywheel, (clutch and pressure plate?)stock crank pulley, I get it sent out to be balanced again?

Have I pretty much got the right idea?

And this you reckon to be about $120 Dan?

Thanks…

13

:slight_smile:

14

Good info here guys. Max I just wanted to ask you what RPM were you revving to on a daily basis that caused you to spin the bearing?

15

Max,

The Balancing should be done all at once. have the crankshaft mic’d and polished first, then have the entire rotating assembly balanced. They need everything that hangs on the crankshaft to do this properly. And as far as cost, it varies. But Jason is right, $120 is on the low end. It can cost anywhere from $120-$250 depending on where you go. Let me know if you have any questions.

16

Originally posted by teg92
Good info here guys. Max I just wanted to ask you what RPM were you revving to on a daily basis that caused you to spin the bearing?

I normally revved to 7500rpm on the street…then I had hit the dyno, and we took it to 8000rpm for 11 runs to see where we could extract the power band to. Then on the way home, CRUISING, not booting it down the highway, my car started making a lot of noise.

:frowning:

didn’t even get a chance to test it after the dyno tuning…(135whp)

Alright, thanks very mcuh, Dan and Jason.

17

Max:
Let me reiterate what Dan said…“DO NOT USE AN ALUMINUM CRANK PULLEY.”
Dan pretty much cleared up the question about the tensioner.
The $250 price is right about what it costs friends and customers of mine for the kind of machine work we are talking about. Most machine shops have an hourly rate and Dan is one lucky mofo if he’s got one in the $45-60 range.
J.

18

One more question, why do you have to change the water pump?
I was just looking at it, and other than the rubber seal, I can’t reeally seee any part that would reequire changing…

pleease explain.
:slight_smile:

19

Originally posted by E-DA9
[B]One more question, why do you have to change the water pump?
I was just looking at it, and other than the rubber seal, I can’t reeally seee any part that would reequire changing…

pleease explain.
:slight_smile: [/B]

That rubber seal (if I’m not mistaken) can seize over time. What you get is the timing belt turning the roller (that sits outside of the engine), with the impeller (sitting inside the engine) not turning. Therefore, your coolant doesn’t circulate which leads to an engine overheating. This applies to most cars.

Regards,

Oz