I heard that there are negative things, but was wondering if it’s just like chance that disaster happens and depending how well your block is built. I have one being installed on my rebuilt LS block.
are u talking about taking a stock pulley and lightening it or using an aftermarket light-weight pulley.
i have an aftermarket light weight pulley for sale if u want:)
Originally posted by cjsls
[B]are u talking about taking a stock pulley and lightening it or using an aftermarket light-weight pulley.
i have an aftermarket light weight pulley for sale if u want:) [/B]
Aftermarket pulley. I have one already, but thanks.
Some motors have a harmonic balancer attached to the crank pulley, and when yu get rid of that by using a lighter one, or an aftermarket one, you CAN run into crank-life issues. Our engines do NOT have a harmonic dampener, our crank is balanced. i have had Unorthadox crank pulley on my LS for a while, and i have no problems, and i have every other pulley replaced as well…still no problems.
what kind of pulley and how much w/ shipping
what if you are fully balancing your bottom end anyways with flywheel and pully? are they safe then?
Originally posted by derrick-g2integ
what kind of pulley and how much w/ shipping
$90 shipped, its a Top Speed, its a local company here in dallas but they’ve been in business a long time…www.topspeedpro-one.com
Originally posted by Notstock93
Some motors have a harmonic balancer attached to the crank pulley, and when yu get rid of that by using a lighter one, or an aftermarket one, you CAN run into crank-life issues. Our engines do NOT have a harmonic dampener, our crank is balanced. i have had Unorthadox crank pulley on my LS for a while, and i have no problems, and i have every other pulley replaced as well…still no problems.
I think you are wrong…our cranks DO have a harmonic balancer.
If you are sure that you are correct, please explain.
Originally posted by E-DA9
[B]I think you are wrong…our cranks DO have a harmonic balancer.
If you are sure that you are correct, please explain. [/B]
you are right max. and its not really that our crank pulley has a harmonic balancer…but it IS a harmonic balancer.
From my understanding the metal portions of the crank pulley are sort of sandwiched around a piece of rubber…ok, i won’t go into this, i’ll let you guys hear it from the horse’s mouth.
here is what i found on www.theoldone.com (there used to be a better write up on this, but i can’t seem to find it…but this will do)
I’ll post a more complete rendition of this on the too site shortly, but let me begin by saying that it’s good to be back and I’m only here to expressly address some questions that need some “good” answers. I am not here to provide schedules or any information regarding the blower program. The topic is that of aftermarket crank pulleys. Let me begin by saying that we have always called the pulley on the accessory drive end on the Honda cranks Harmonic Balancers. People never seemed to understand what we were talking about and so the word “pulley” was frequently used to avoid confusion. If you look carefully at a Honda “pulley”, you’ll find that it’s not a single piece of metal. Typically, there’s a nodular iron or steel hub and another “ring” of iron or steel surrounding it containing the belt grooves. The two parts are joined by a rubber layer, which is highly compressed and sandwiched between them. Why rubber? If you notice, many four cylinder engines over the years have used counter rotating shafts to help make the engine “feel” smoother. Reciprocating internal combustion engines and especially in-line four cylinder versions, all produce shock pulses, which are very apparent to the occupants of the car. Every engine produces a shock pulse each time an individual cylinder fires. So, in the case of the four cylinder variety, there are four large individual pulses for each 720 degrees of crank rotation. Each time there’s a pulse, it causes the internal components to do a rapid acceleration-deceleration event. When you consider the mass of all the internal components and visualize all these parts stopping and starting during their reciprocating and rotating motions, the additional stress “spikes” tend to make it all the more reason for one to wonder how any of it can work for any length of time. The harmonic balancer is made with the rubber coupling so that, when the individual “spikes” occur, the inner portion may move with the crank, but the rubber connected outer ring’s mass helps prevent the hub and crank from going as far or as fast during the spikes or pulses. Remember that the outer part had considerable mass, so it tends to want to stay in motion at the speed that it’s traveling and that’s why it can prevent excessive harsh motion by the crank and other internal parts. To put it simply, the harmonic balancer is a shock absorber for the engine and thus prevents the individual pulses from destroying everything in the engine. A quick bit of history; Back in the late '70’s, all the Pro Stock engines had been reduced in displacement to allow the cars to weigh less. At that time the vehicle weight was based on engine “type” and total displacement. Typically, the engines were in the 330 cubic inch range and running 10,000 to 11,000 rpm was normal, especially in high gear at the traps. There began to be a lot of engines that were “exploding” their harmonic balancers on the big end. Aside from cutting the steering in half and blowing the front tires, large hunks were also finding their way into the grandstands and there were numerous injuries, many of which ended in death. NHRA immediately mandated that solid “balancers” were to be used from that point on. Keep in mind that a balancer can’t be solid and function properly, but the rules were the rules. Moroso and a couple other companies who were tight with NHRA began making aluminum billet “balancers” immediately and everyone bought them so they’d be legal to race. All of a sudden, racers were getting only 10 passes from their crankshafts, which had previously lasted an entire season. Initially, most people thought the cranks were “bad”, but after destroying engine after engine, a few knowledgeable engine people figured out where the problem actually was coming from and several companies that were capable of making functioning harmonic balancers sprang up over night. They are all still in the business to this day and their units are actually much better than the factory units of years before, as they are made from premium materials and optimized for high rpm applications. With this short bit of history finished, I’ll begin to wind it up by stating what we do with the Honda engines. If the balancer has more belt grooves than the application needs, i.e. the power steering pulley, we machine it off. When it comes to the the pulleys that are actually a part of the outer portion of the balancer, we leave them intact. This procedure will not lighten the unbalanced hub substantialy, but the outer balancer ring will keep all its mass and function correctly. I also need to say that a large driven mass such as a blower or alternator, can have a slight dampening effect, but to actually work properly, the belt connecting the components to the crank would need to be 4" to 5" wide and the belt tension would be so great that it would wear out the number 1 main bearing as well as the bearings of the the driven parts in short order. It’s especially important to keep the balancer “as is”, if you’re running an aluminum flywheel. The reduction in flywheel mass can also increase the pulsation shock strength and a higher level of vibration will immediately be observable. So if you lighten the flywheel,it’s absolutely more necessary than ever to maintain the mass or the harmonic balancer. I realize that there’s a lot of hype out there where manufacturers are promising this and that. The oversize crank pulleys can drive other geared or belted components faster due to the diameter ratio increase, but if you’re deleting the balancer in the process, the short and long term side effects are going to hinge on your decisions. Larger diameter pulleys for the alternator, power steering and any other belt driven accessory are good ways to slow the speeds and drag of the those components, but when doing a large diameter crank pulley, the larger pulleys should actually be designed to fit “over” the stock balancer. Perhaps, someone will begin to make some good quality “functional” balancers some day, but until they do, you need to proceed carefully, as some good looks and minimal power gains can be off set by a ruined engine. I’m sure that there will be some fall out regarding what I’m saying here and to that effect I need to remind everyone that we do not manufacture hubs, big pulleys, or harmonic balancers for Hondas and none of what I’ve said is the least bit politically motivated.
And yes, any engine with a non-functional hub or balancer can ruin the crank driven oil pump and a whole lot more.
this post and others can be found here: Harmonic Balacer Info courtesy T.O.O
Damn, so my motor is eventually gonna go becasue I have an aftermarket lightened pulley? Or is this jsut like one of those things were my LS rod bolts are gonna eventually give way to 8500rpm abuse. I know I revved the **** out of my LS block when it had cams, 8000-8500 and I drove well over 20,000 b4 I swapped for a b16. Decisions, decisions.
Originally posted by myNAteg
Damn, so my motor is eventually gonna go becasue I have an aftermarket lightened pulley? Or is this jsut like one of those things were my LS rod bolts are gonna eventually give way to 8500rpm abuse. I know I revved the **** out of my LS block when it had cams, 8000-8500 and I drove well over 20,000 b4 I swapped for a b16. Decisions, decisions.
it really seems to depend. its rare when you actually talk to people who have had trouble with aftermarket crank pulleies. But then again not too many people use them, and very few of the the guys who are really into their cars, good tuners and keep their motors for years are seen using them. Most of the people i’ve seen use the pullies are just kids in my area who want all the parts that are easy to swap in and think they’ll go fast…these kids never keep their cars for more than a year anyway and don’t treat them very well besides that…so really its hard to tell how much of a factor the crank pulley is.
personally i’d never put on on my car. I mean if you’re gonna go the extra effort to rebuild your motor, get it all spec’d to perfect tolerances, get the bottom end balanced perfectly… and then remove the harmonic dampener?? seems sorta crazy to me. At most i’d just get the pullies for alternator, power steering, and a/c. Another option, if you’re hardcore, would be to get a ctr crank pulley. Its an oem honda part so you know its quality, but it only has a drive for the alternator…no power steering or a/c. Because of this its lighter, and as you know, lighter is better.
YES! this was exactly what I was talking about and people never believed me, all the stupid locals just want easy bolt ons and have no desire to learn anything.
you are right, the crank pulley itself acts like a balancer, since it the rings on the pulley that drive the belts are balanced to each other, but so are unorthodox’s pulleys, they are set to 0 balance, so to speak. the rubber that he is talking about…well…i have my crank pulley right in front of me, and it as NO external harmonic balancers or rubber on it, and my friends at tokyo image are adament that hondas engines are no worse for the wear by installing and aftermarket pulley. The impulse this guy is talking about does occur, and does wear out an engine, but in our particular case i do NOT see it being worsened by a lighter pulley.
Originally posted by Notstock93
you are right, the crank pulley itself acts like a balancer, since it the rings on the pulley that drive the belts are balanced to each other, but so are unorthodox’s pulleys, they are set to 0 balance, so to speak. the rubber that he is talking about…well…i have my crank pulley right in front of me, and it as NO external harmonic balancers or rubber on it, and my friends at tokyo image are adament that hondas engines are no worse for the wear by installing and aftermarket pulley. The impulse this guy is talking about does occur, and does wear out an engine, but in our particular case i do NOT see it being worsened by a lighter pulley.
You are right, the pulley DOES NOT have any external “balancers”. Like it says in the article, the pulley itself is a “harmonic balancer.” i’m pretty sure you’re not able to see the actual rubber just by looking at the pulley. I think it actually has to be dismantled or cut up to see it.
it does not matter if the unorthodox pullies are balanced to eachother. sure thats all fine and dandy…but did you read the article i posted? I think not. read it again and you’ll see that the balancing of the pulley is not the issue. A balanced pulley will be better than one that isn’t balanced, however if its still solid then its not a “dampener” Being balanced and “dampening” are not correlated. If its a solid piece of aluminum how will it dampen thes pulses created by the motor. Like i said, you should actually read the article i posted.
what type of specific examples can you give us from your motors and your friends motors? are you guys NA? turbo? what kind of rpm’s are you reving your motors to? are you actually racing these things or are they just street vehicles? how many miles are on most of the motors you’ve put these pullies on (meaning how long have the pullies been on the motors). On a street car the effect is probably going to be VERY small, possibly not really even evident (because you’d need to put many miles on it).
as far as examples, most of the people i know with pulleys have turbo, b16’s with about 30k on them, they race EVERY night, many, many times a night, and more than half rev to 9000 once a race. They go through transmissions, yes, but engines…no. i myself hvae a lightwiehgt pulley, and have had no problems. my buddy from kansas built his motor outside the car, and put an unorthadox pulley on, has had the motor for two years, driven every day, to and from KU every so often, and has had NO problem, save once his oil plug fell out, but that neither here nor there. his engine is a B18B, NA, now with 30k hard driven, daily driven miles and alot of bolt ons.
Originally posted by Notstock93
as far as examples, most of the people i know with pulleys have turbo, b16’s with about 30k on them, they race EVERY night, many, many times a night, and more than half rev to 9000 once a race. They go through transmissions, yes, but engines…no. i myself hvae a lightwiehgt pulley, and have had no problems. my buddy from kansas built his motor outside the car, and put an unorthadox pulley on, has had the motor for two years, driven every day, to and from KU every so often, and has had NO problem, save once his oil plug fell out, but that neither here nor there. his engine is a B18B, NA, now with 30k hard driven, daily driven miles and alot of bolt ons.
with that few miles on the motors i’d definitely not be convinced that the pullies are not a problem. I mean it is possible they are of no harm… but 30k miles on a street motor that someone drag races a few times week does not convince me that it isn’t detrimental to the motor. I’m not saying you’re wrong…i’m just saying its not enough to convince me its actually worth it to get one. all the big guys in the scene that i’ve talked to have recommended sticking w/ the oem pulley.
This is a good, thread, there are facts supporting both sides, and experiances as well. Not only that, but the arguments are intellegent and not “your retarded, your car isnt as fast as mine” replies. Your right, 30k isnt a lot, and i would look around for someone with a higher miileage motor that has the crank pulley on there to be sure, but one of the turbo cars that has a unorthadox race crank pulley that i metioned is a LS/VTEC turbo 500hp drag CRX (that i got to drive once…sorta) that regularly sees the 1/4 mile. no problems so far.
Originally posted by 91IntegGS
[B]You are right, the pulley DOES NOT have any external “balancers”. Like it says in the article, the pulley itself is a “harmonic balancer.” i’m pretty sure you’re not able to see the actual rubber just by looking at the pulley. I think it actually has to be dismantled or cut up to see it.
[/B]
Just to clarify, you can see the “rubber” (not sure it’s actually rubber) ring if you remove the crank pulley. It’s visible on the backside of the pulley (the side that faces the timing belt), but not easily visible on the front (it’s inside the pulley, so you’d have to look/feel around inside the hex shaped hole.)
I’m not so sure I fully trust some of what T.O.O. says, but what he said makes sense, but I’ve also heard the pulley is dampened to protect the accessories from vibration more so than it is to protect the crank, which makes some sense as well. I don’t know enough of the details or the exact science behind it though so I can’t say for sure. I’m keeping my stock pulley for now until there is some sort of actual proof that the stock pulley isn’t there for dampening/harmonics. The only other pulley I’d consider other than a shaved down stock one would be a ctr pulley. Just on a side note, I believe there is a ctr N1 pulley made by honda that is solid aluminum, and I think some of the d-series engines have solid pulleys as well, which is why I’m not sure whether or not the “dampener” is required (although it could be somewhat of a hp/engine design issue). Just my .02 of pondering.
archive this
But are the alternator and PS pulley okay
Unorthodox also has an accessory pulley set. It is what comes with the Ultra Street set, only thing missing is the crank pulley (I guess that’s right). So do you guys think it will be okay for me to go ahead and get just the accessory pullies, and what later on for the crank pulley, until we get this cleared up?
Thanks,
Jay