EF koni race application on DA

ASSISTANCE Suspension, Brakes & Wheels
1

Hey guys, I’m looking at buying a lightly used koni/gc setup from a guy parting out his crx race car. The setup is EF specific Koni race spec (gc type) struts, eibach ground control coilovers, and gc extended tophats. His price is very fair especially considering its the race specific koni yellows but I am a bit worried about fitment. After reading the article Ben ogle posted on hybrid suspension I gather that the only difference between the two suspensions is that the rear struts on the EF are a bit shorter than the DA (approximately an inch), however the race spec Koni’s are shorter than normal struts so I’m curious if I would have enough adjustment, especially on the rear, to have the car at a driveable height.

Taken from Koni:
The RACE series dampers are designed as a bolt in application for those running either in high performance driving events, road racing or autocross. They are externally adjustable in rebound damping and can be adjusted on the car. They are designed to work with the extreme high performance spring rates up to 1000 lbs. with coilover sleeve setups. These shock come with factory style perches but will also work will our coilover sleeve systems.

Also, these shocks have been shortened to give additional travel in the suspension to work with the lowered ride heights that these cars are running. This gives the cars additional travel and keeps the car from bottoming out. The shocks are 25mm shorter in the front and 15mm shorter in the rear (8041 1204Raceis only 10mm shorter ).

Any input I could gather from anyone with experience would be appreciated. Thanks!

2

I haven’t had a set of off the shelf RACE shocks, so my experience may not be 100% valid here. Instead my RACE shocks have been made by ProParts. Originally I bought some used EF yellows and had ProParts rebuild them to RACE spec. There was some confusion and they didn’t realize what I was asking for and that they would be going on a DA. I believe they converted the EF yellows I sent them to the OTS length for either the EF or DC. Regardless, they were too short. Here are some pics of the shocks: http://www.flickr.com/photos/clen/sets/72157600033841899/

I don’t think I have any pics of them on the car, but basically I couldn’t get the car high enough. At max height (aka no droop) I was tucking tire a little bit. That would work for some, but not anyone looking for performance opposed to aesthetics.

Might be worthwhile to as the guy for measurements, or if its a killer deal just get em, try em, and resell if needed. But either way I think its a bit of a risk that they’ll be too short :frowning: sorry.

3

Thanks for the response Colin! When you installed them and found that it was too low was it just the rears or was it also the fronts? From just looking at the numbers alone it would seem that the race version for the DA would be the exact same length as the race version for the EF so there shouldn’t be a problem there. However since the rears are already shorter in their regular form I would think the race’s would be where the adjustment problem would arise, correct? I had explained to the seller my concerns about the fitment and he had suggested spring helpers for the rear if I was worried about it. Is that a valid solution?

4

Please take everything I’m saying w/ a grain of salt, this was over 5yrs ago and as I said before I had mine made at ProParts, so there’s a variable there as to exactly what they sent me - it may be different from the OTS EF RACE shocks. I’m guessing no one else here has any input on this topic so I figure my vague remembrance is better than nothing, lol.

Unless things have changed Koni does not make a RACE shock for the DA. The only way you can get them is to send OTS yellows to Koni NA or ProParts and have them shortened and re-valved. So trying to compare any other chassis’s application to the DA application doesn’t make sense since they don’t exist. With that said, IF a DA RACE shock did exist it would NOT be the same as an EF shock. Assuming that when converted to RACE spec the shocks are shortened the same amount, and the EF shock starts out shorter, then the resulting RACE spec of the EF would still be shorter than the RACE spec DA.

Found some stuff I’d posted online before… Here’s the length info I got from one of the head honchos at Koni (forget his name now). Unfortunately I forget exactly where these measurements are to, but I want to think it’s from mounting point to mounting point.

SHOCK TYPE____________________Max Length (mm) / Min Length (mm)

90-93 Integra
8041-1200 Sport (F) 474 / 368
8041-1201 Sport (R) 516 / 371

89-91 Civic
8041-1166 SP4 (F) 395 / 297
8041-1153 Sport (R) 486 / 343

94-01 Integra / 92-95 Civic
8041-1152 Sport (F) 433 / 308
8041-1153 Sport (R) 486 / 343

ProParts Modded EF Shocks (these are the ones I mentioned before)
8041-1166 SP4 (F) 345 / 275
8041-1153 RACE (R) 428 / 321

Now that I’m looking at this stuff I posted years ago it looks like ProParts really shortened the hell out of the EF yellows I sent them. A full 2" shorter then the original EF shock in the front and rear, which then made them 5" shorter than a stock DA shock (front) and 3.5" shorter in the rear. Man, I had forgotten how bad they fucked up. Next time I’m gonna deal with the extra shipping cost and long turn around and just have my Koni’s serviced at Koni NA.

If the OTS EF RACE shocks are 25mm/f and 15mm/r shorter than the OTS yellows that would make them 104mm/f (~4") and 45mm/r (~1.75") shorter than OEM length DA shocks. I would guess that they would be fine in the rear, but the front might be pushing it.

As for the use of helper springs, that person is very mistaken on what helper springs do. The purpose of a helper spring is to take up the slack at full droop when your spring becomes unseated from the upper perch. When the suspension is loaded it is fully compressed and it does not lengthen the shock assembly.

5

Awesome info Colin! I found this thread on hondatech and it seems like the more I read the more confused I am… Apparently I have it backwards. You dropped a lot of info in there too.

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2064297

After rereading the pm from the seller I noticed he was referring to the droop on the rears when he mentioned the spring helpers. I guess I was tired when I read that and posted this thread last night. He has extended tophats installed on the rears of hos setup. According to that thread I linked the extended tophats would actually be detrimental to height adjustment when using EF Koni’s on a DA. Also if the numbers you came up with are accurate then it seems I don’t want this setup due to the fronts. I’m still waiting to here back from him for measurements, then I guess I’ll be able to make a definitive decision on whether to use them or pass.

6

Correct, adding the top hats won’t help, the exact effect is a bit up in the air without really testing it. It has a lot to do with the shock length, spring length…etc. The top hats will affect the maximum height you’re able to achieve, but when you’re getting anywhere near that position in your suspension travel it means that you’re basically at full droop for your static ride height - sorta like a lowrider that bounces when it’s raised as high as it goes because there’s no more suspension travel the only thing left to flex is tire and bushings. If you’re trying to go that far an inch every little bit of height then you’re sacrificing other things which I feel are more important. As far as I understand it your goal should be to have the shock in the exact middle of it’s suspension travel when at your static ride height. The caveat being that with different applications you need different amounts of droop and compression. For example, a rally car needs a decent amount of droop whereas a road race car does not need much. With cars like ours I’m not sure what the correct ratio is, but I think you want a bit more compression than droop. If you’ve gone so far as to have all compression and no droop then you’re in a bad spot. And likewise, back in the day before we had so many good options like shorter shocks, extended top hats…etc everyone had a TON of droop travel and not much compression, often nearly zero compression if you were dumped.

Do you mind I ask what price he’s asking and what the specs/mileage are on them? If the price is really good then it might be worth taking a risk to see if it could work for you. If it’s not a killer deal then I’d pass. And actually now that I think about it, you really don’t need RACE shocks. Unless there’s something about your situation that I’m not aware of, I can’t see any legitimate reasoning behind you buying RACE shocks other than if you were in need of new shocks anyway and they were the same price as OTS yellows. The RACE shocks are quite a premium over the OTS Sport valving and since you can’t buy DA RACE shocks you’d be buying shocks which are likely too short anyway. The only benefit being that you could run 550+ spring rates. And if you’re not tracking your car, why on earth would you want spring rates that high? If there was a DA RACE shock then you could justify getting them purely because of the shorter shock bodies.

If you’re currently shopping for shocks I’d just look around and see what you can find used. I find Koni/GC combos for sale all the time for good prices. Not epic pricing as they hold their value quite well, but when you factor in tax and the premium buying new it’s usually worthwhile to buy used. Especially since they last a long time. Then you can run the yellows as-is for as long as you need. When they wear out, you can have them rebuilt, and if you want you can have them rebuilt to RACE spec. An OE rebuild is around $500 I think and a RACE rebuild is more like $700-$800. When rebuilding that’s really when you can do the cost/value analysis between Sport and RACE valving and have RACE actually be a worthwhile cost. Likewise, if you started doing track days or autoX and after a while wanted to bump up your spring rates you could get 'em rebuilt to RACE spec at that time which would then be the cheapest option compared to anything you could buy new. I look at Koni’s as a long term investment since they hold their value, can be rebuilt, and can be rebuilt for different applications. It might be the last shock you buy…

7

He is asking $800 for the complete setup. Not the deal of a lifetime but definitely fair. He put less than 50 miles on them because it was strictly a track car. I have been shopping for Koni’s recently so the fact that they are the race version versus the ots seemed a benefit and I almost pulled the trigger without doing enough research but I’m glad I thought twice. After reading Ben ogle’s hybrid suspension article I was pretty confident I shouldn’t have any issues but once I found that thread on hondatech I really started to think twice. The seller told me he would get me the measurements so I guess its still a possibility that they could work. I’ll report back when I hear from him.

I do have a set of front Koni yellow DA struts that I acquired in a trade but they are shot. I had kicked around the idea of rebuilding them to race spec and purchasing some rears but after running the numbers this seemed like a better deal financially. Thats the thing, I wish I could always think methodically like you but often I find myself underthinking decisions like this… Bad, I know

8

I should also mention after rereading your post that it is not going to see much street driving.d really like to get into autocrossing. However without towing it, it will still have to be streetable enough to make it there and back. And of course on nice days I’d like to bring it out in town.

9

Ok here’s what he sent me. I also linked him that thread so he could see my concern but this was his response.

According to that thread they should fit fine.

Unfortunately I can’t give you precise measurements for those since I would have to disassemble them to do that.

Here are approximate measurements though.

Front - 370mm Rear - 475mm

10

You don’t need RACE spec shocks even if you’re going to do a few autocrosses. What spring rate do you plan to run? That is a much better judge of what shock you’ll need. But regardless if you haven’t done more than 2-3 autox events or track days then I wouldn’t even worry about getting the best. If the goal is to have a car which you take to autox and track days you should start simple. It’d actually be smart to bring it back to stock and start there - no bullshit. Of course I don’t expect you to do that, none of us do. 95% of everyone out there on their first time is running a car which is either over prepared or even in stock form is more than a beginner should be dealing with (think Corvette, STI…etc). If you’re truly in it for personal improvement - trying to be the best driver YOU can be and not trying to be a mediocre driver in a fast car then stop thinking about modifications and start thinking about seat time. Your money is much better invested in entry fees than car parts. This is easy to tell others and incredibly hard to live by. I’ll be the first to admit that I’m horrible at following my own advice.

I wouldn’t trust that seller’s opinion on them working, he has motivation to sell his parts. Not that he’s trying to scam you, maybe he knows more than either of us, just saying people pick and choose what they say when selling stuff… Is this just some random guy or a well known seller?

11

No I definitely don’t need the race specs, it just seemed like a better deal than most of what I’ve been finding for sale lately. I agree, seat time is a must and I’m really looking forward to getting my car to a point where thats something I can pursue. It’s so hard to find time to work on it though (work, kids, etc) so my timeframe keeps moving backwards. I think I probably will pass on this setup though. It’s just more money than I really want to gamble with. The last thing I want is to be disappointed. I appreciate your input immensely man! Thank you so much!

12

[QUOTE=rollinmyda;2301474]He is asking $800 for the complete setup. Not the deal of a lifetime but definitely fair. He put less than 50 miles on them because it was strictly a track car. I have been shopping for Koni’s recently so the fact that they are the race version versus the ots seemed a benefit and I almost pulled the trigger without doing enough research but I’m glad I thought twice. After reading Ben ogle’s hybrid suspension article I was pretty confident I shouldn’t have any issues but once I found that thread on hondatech I really started to think twice. The seller told me he would get me the measurements so I guess its still a possibility that they could work. I’ll report back when I hear from him.

I do have a set of front Koni yellow DA struts that I acquired in a trade but they are shot. I had kicked around the idea of rebuilding them to race spec and purchasing some rears but after running the numbers this seemed like a better deal financially. Thats the thing, I wish I could always think methodically like you but often I find myself underthinking decisions like this… Bad, I know[/QUOTE]

How much for your blown Koni’s? I’m hardparking right now and just want to go looooowwwww and im sure they will ride better than what I have right meow lol.

13

Email or text me

michaelessila@gmail.com
530-321-9334

14

hey I have been talking to a vendor on honda-tech and this is the message and pricing he gave me on a koni/gc combo. I’m going with 550lb springs up front and 450 in the rear.

Thank you for inquiring about the Koni/Ground Control Package.
For the stage 1 package with 4 koni yellows and 4 ground control coilovers its $799 shipped. For the stage 2 package with 4 koni yellows, 4 ground control coilovers, and 2 top hats its $899 shipped. These prices are for all 92-00 Civics and 94-01 Integras. If you have a 93-97 prelude, or 88-91 Civic, 90-93 Integra, you are looking at $39 more per package due to the shocks being more expensive. 01-05 civics, RSX, and TSX are $995 shipped. To order, please call us at 1-800-959-0145 ext 8 or you can paypal: sales@thmotorsports.com . Please remember to tell us the spring rates you want, as you can choose whatever rates you like!

Stage III package, which includes all 4 top hats, is $1019 shipped in the lower 48 states.

Please remember, if you are located in California, you must pay $37-42 in tax depending on which package you go with. Ground Control makes us charge California customers this tax since they are located in California.

If you want Koni’s alone:
Koni Yellows for 88-00 Civics/94-01/Del Sol Integra are on super special right now for $499 shipped! To order, please call me at 1-800-959-0145 ext 103 or you can paypal: sales@thmotorsports.com . If you have a Prelude, Accord please add $75 to that price. If you have an RSX/Ep3/EM2, the koni’s are $595 shipped.

Thanks in advance,

Luke
THM 1-800-959-0145 ext 104
AIM: lpawlik@THMotorsports.com
lpawlik@THMotorsports.com

15

Just to chime in on this thread I’ve autox’d my DA competitively for several years in SMF in the Southeast with a Koni sport/GC perch setup with basically stock spring rates before I made the switch to the Koni race struts and a lot more spring 800f 900r. You don’t have to get fancy spring setups unless you want to try and go after all the fast guys. (Unless you just want to PAX everyone in a stock Mini in H-Stock lol).

Koni as far as I’m aware does offer struts for the DA9 (I ordered a new set of Koni races/GC+springs from GC at the beginning of last year) though they could just be EF struts as they do cross over, I haven’t looked to see if the part numbers are the same. Also, for what it’s worth the S2000 tophats with the urethane (you don’t need the billet ones) are what I’m using they work great and cost less I think than the “extended” tophats that are for the DA.

I would concur with Colin that it’s better to start autox and track days with a stock car on street tires. Baller suspension and Hoosiers can hide bad driving, you need to get seat time and your driving technique down before you start upping the performance of the car. Example- I started autox in '09 in my stock '09 FA5 and then graduated to my DA once I had finished building it.