Engine Timing Woes

ASSISTANCE Stock Engine-Bay Components
1

The 16-degree timing mark (the red mark used to adjust timing at idle) seems to have gone AWOL. All I can see where it should be is rust.

Now, I can see the TDC mark (white), if only just, about where it should be, but the area where I expected to see the red mark is covered by rust and or dirt.

So, unless someone has a better suggestion, it looks like I would have to remove the crank pulley, measure 16 degrees, and make a new mark, then reassemble the whole mess and try again… (or just buy a clean crank pulley)… help!?

2

use a dial back timing light.

3

[QUOTE=welfare;2277265]use a dial back timing light.[/QUOTE]Good point, thanks. I don’t own one, so it did not occur to me.

4

probably rent one for cheap enough. i probably wouldn’t go buy one

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[QUOTE=welfare;2277278]probably rent one for cheap enough. i probably wouldn’t go buy one[/QUOTE]Nope, no part store in MKE has a loaner.

In any case, I decided to do the timing belt first, then set the engine to the spec’ed 16 degree advance, then the rest of the regular tuneup stuff. I had a friend check the vacuum, & there is no evidence of a leak @ idle or fast idle atm.

Since the crank pulley was off, I recreated the timing marks with white touchup paint and some nail polish, so I should be good to go there. B/f I took it off, I checked the pulley for TDC, and it was not even close, so the old belt must have skipped a tooth or two.

Btw, the tool I used to keep the crank pulley in place was a “50-mm Crank Pulley Holder for Honda” by Powerbuilt, p/n 648796, $13 from Amazon. Of anyone else is interested, I can post pictures… may be good for some other newbie.

Had some trouble getting decent tension on the tensioner pulley even after taking the spring out to make sure it was ok, and backing out the tensioner pulley bolt quite a bit, but all seems ok now and lined up. (Using a Dayco timing belt). Car starts &idles ok, at least.

Flange nut on the lower alternator bolt did not come quietly, and will have to be replaced (loosening the upper adjustment bolt was not enuf to release the alternator to swing on the lower one in its track).

The real trouble started when I replaced the motor mount though. For some reason, getting it lined up using a jack and a board under the oilpan took three tries, and, to add some discontent to my winter, the lower bolt now has one flattened thread in the middle, and will NOT go back in. Everything else lines up, the other two bolts are torqued to spec, a different fine pitch bolt threads in from the top and the holes look lined up, but the bolt that came out will only go part way in from the bottom :mad:

Anyway, the engine still starts and runs after all this silliness, at least @ idle.

6

[QUOTE=PMI;2278065]I had a friend check the vacuum, & there is no evidence of a leak @ idle or fast idle atm.
[\quote]

i take it you used a gauge and measured vacuum. this method is actually ineffective in detecting a vacuum leak on cars using an iacv. since the iacv itself is a controlled vacuum leak. typically, a vacuum leak is a level of unmetered air to the cylinders and results in a high idle. with an iac system, the iacv is commanded closed to compensate for the unmetered air and the idle is brought back down to spec level. you can try it yourself. go to your car, start it up, and pull a vacuum hose ofyour choice. the idle may jump very briefly, just before the high idle is detected by the ecm, but then it’ll drop right back down.

Had some trouble getting decent tension on the tensioner pulley even after taking the spring out to make sure it was ok, and backing out the tensioner pulley bolt quite a bit, but all seems ok now and lined up. (Using a Dayco timing belt). [\quote]

there is going to be a fair amount of slack on the belt. it’s both normal and necessary

[quote]
the bolt that came out will only go part way in from the bottom :mad:

Anyway, the engine still starts and runs after all this silliness, at least @ idle.

can you not just space out the shoulder of the bolt? like use washers or some kind of spacer, like a nut or something?
or run a die over the bolt (ideal)

7

Yes we used a vacuum gauge. Gave me something to do while contemplating some of the other issues. The vacuum lines have to go anyway, and I thought it would make a good reference test. Did not consider the IACV, thanks for the explanation (really need to read more of that 800-page manual (sigh). And thanks for letting me know the belt should have some slack. The old one was def too loose, and perhaps that made me more cautious.

I can’t space the shoulder of the bolt that much, no. The driver side of the engine hangs on that mount w. two bolts (over under). The end might break off in the mount, which would be a pain. And I do not have a thread restorer metric kit.

The mount is held by one other bolt, to run it at idle while doing the rest of the tuneup items, it is probably ok. I think that bolt is around $5-6, so I think I will try to get it at the dealer tomorrow. If not easily available, I guess I will buy the kit.

edit:

Since I only know a little about this engine, I think I will try to get the timing right, replace that bolt, and do a little more reading… that manual is just one long thrill… I have not seen plot development like that since I had to read Proust in school… :wink:

8

the manual’s great for specs, but really, the systems used in virtually all early pgmfi vehicles are identical. manufacturers will use different names for components, but at the end of the day, they can all be equated to one another.
if you want a solid base, i’d suggest researching first the ecm and its function, the ecm inputs (there really aren’t many. maybe a dozen or so), and the ecm outputs/actuators. basically, you just take an ecm pin out and research what each of those pins does. what is the function of the sensor or actuator at the other end of that pin? how does it operate? the beauty is once you know that, it all transfers over to a mazda 323 or a toyota celica or a ford escort…etc. it’s all the same. and the reason why that is? because robert bosch wrote book on efi. they all follow the same model.

9

Ah, well I just assumed that Hondas were “different”. I know there are some good references for the Motronic ECUs, like what was used in Saabs etc. I’ll try to find some time to educate myself a bit. Honestly, I have barely looked under the hood so far, and right now I am just trying to cover the basic tuneup items. Speaking of which, when I found the rust covered TDC mark on the pulley (I mean b/f I took the old belt off), and when the timing gears was locked in place with pins. I saw the timing was off (retarded) a good 10 degrees, maybe more. I am surprised the engine ran passably like this.

10

Finally done. Replaced the timing belt, found the little notches on the crank pulley and recreated the TDC and 16-degree advance marks, replaced a couple of the accessory belts, and then I could finally check and set the timing as per the Acura manual. Also found that the AC compressor belt tensioner pulley has a really dry and noisy bearing… (sigh).