i like the lack of bodyroll with it on at low speed (<50mph), but of course the understeer is horrid (st 24mm/19mm). ive had to resort to running extreme tire pressures and shock settings to max. currently running sportlines (457f linear/171-257r progressive), and am thinking im gonna swap the rears with my spare coilovers - one is 350lb, the other is 450lb, both linear.
koni yellows and azenis on 14" hx, all bars. camber -1.5F/-1.0R, toe 0, caster +1.
think im gonna try out the 350lb first so ill have 457F/350R. do you think the front bar will still be problem or change back to stock? how about with 450? i noticed people like 400/600 for autox. i plan to HPDE as well, probably starting at willowsprings.
not sure what to do about camber either. azenis seem to be wearing fine, so im thinking add some more front at -2.0, remove some rear to -0.5? at what point will it be good for autox but too extreme for roadcoarses? im leaning towards roadcoarse settings as its still gonna be my daily driver (more straight traction?).
btw i know i should try each out individually but i cant work at my house anymore, i gotta drive a ways to a friends house so id like to be a little more efficient.
hi geratol. I actaully remember seeing your car competing on one of the events… i was competing that day too. it was about a year ago.
actaully, when i auto cross, i agree that stiffer springs in the rear do seem to help more. The reason is because for those sharp low speed turns, i liek to take a corner HARD and let my tail kind of slide out a bit. I can correct too much oversteer by counter-steering and pushing the gas more. I get better times with stiffer springs in the rear for auto cross.
HOWEVER
in a road racing situation, i defiently use stiffer springs in the front. Balance of a vehicle is a very important issue at higher speeds. our integras are front heavy so having stiffer springs in the front will have better overall balance in turning and braking… if my car oversteers for whatever reason at a 60 mph turn, it could be disatrous. i only want a little bit understeer at high speed cornering… especially those high speed corners where the angle changes.
soo yea… it really depends on the type of driving the person is comfortable with… and it depends on what type of corners you will be mostly doing. =)
guess ill just skip the 350 and put 450 in the rear. or should i replace the front sportline 457 with the 350 coilover hmmm
We are running 400F/500R and have no clearance problems in the rear. Wheels are 14x6 +35 and tires are 195-60R14 Azenis. I set the Konis stiffer in back than the front. Tire pressures are different for each corner up front and the same in the rear. Rear Sway Bar is an ADDCO, front is stock. Our CRX Si rotates fine at BeaveRun. The track is not flat. I’ll know more when we go to The Glen on Monday. As to your setup-I’ll hazard that you are oversprung in the rear. You might reconsider and go with 600# springs if you have not done so already.
Another thing-depending on sanctioning body and type of event-you can do what we did and ‘roll the fenders’ to gain about 1/2" of clearance in the rear. I had no rub before I did this, but elected to do so as the rules allow it. Lastly, our car is set within factory spec for Camber on all 4 corners.
Hope this is useful to you.
i guess ill just have to try em out. hopefully my back wont complain.
Two reasons come to mind right off. With a heavy swaybar any single wheel movement is transferred to the wheel on the other side whether roll from cornering or just a bump. In a turn, body roll pushes up the outside wheels and the heavy bar will tend to lift the inside wheel too. With a light, or no bar, the outside takes the load and the inside stays on the ground.
The second reason is shock tuning. If the shocks are tuned to the spring rate and heavy bars are used, when cornering the shock rate will not be controlling the extra spring rate from the bar. A heavy bar is a very high spring rate in roll so the car ends up underdamped in corners. If the shocks are tuned for the heavy bars, then the car is overdamped when going straight.
Probably a bunch of other stuff I can’t think of now.
Hearsay says that koni’s top out at about 400in/lbs, but I havn’t had a problem yet, just something to keep an eye on though. Problem is when in a turn the sway bars act to increase the spring rate so it may (or may not:)) lead to issues in the corners.
You might try swapping the 450’s to the back and putting the 350’s up front, I have something simular in my setup(375f,450r), it works well for both Auto-x and HPDE, with only mild understeer when the car is pushed very hard. The only thing different is I’m running stock bars, the st bars might make it a bit more dicey at very high speed, prolly to high to worry about though.
i feel so small… anywho, after reading about 10 of 20+ threads (eyes can only take so much!) on honda-tech i think i kinda have a feel for what i want now.
would snapping a 22mm rear sway gonna help? lets say my rate ratio is 60% so changing from 19 to 22 rear would change that ratio to how much when i am taking a corner (so the bar would do its job)?
Originally posted by codenamezero would snapping a 22mm rear sway gonna help? lets say my rate ratio is 60% so changing from 19 to 22 rear would change that ratio to how much when i am taking a corner (so the bar would do its job)?
i didnt quite pickup on ratios but (22/19)^4=1.79 so about 1.8 times stiffer.
I would argue that a thick front sway isn’t beneficial for either autocrossing or HPDE on a FWD. Less traction, and quicker lateral weight transfer. Your spring rates will depend on what your shocks can handle (ideally your shocks will be valved for your rates, but we’re not all rich). 450/500# springs with Yellows are soft enough for most rough autocross courses from my experience (which is small with this suspension). I have not taken it out to the track with the newer suspension so I can’t comment on how it felt, yet. I will be sticking with this for awhile since I’m not spending money on a car I don’t drive, but spring rates really are a “tuned” component.
Let me edit my first statement. For the track, get the softest springs that keep you off the bumpstops with minimal roll at the lowest ride height you can afford (class rules, streetability, etc.). You probably won’t get it right the first time, though.
Ideal camber settings is tough, but static ideal camber for both autocross and track days is the same: as negative as you can get without compromizing longitudinal traction (gross generalization). I would just ask someone who’s competitive with a similar setup to you. People with Azenis seem to run 2.5deg to 2deg negative with a few running 3deg (I wouldn’t suggets that).
I have found that for autocrossing a higher front spring rate with a smaller front sway bar and a smaller rear spring rate with a larger rear sway bar suits my driving style better. You will get less off corner inside wheel spin with a small (or no) front sway bar…
I would not drop your front spring rate lower than 400#. I have 400/300 now and with the car lowered almost 2" , the upper control arm up front bottoms out on the inner fender well on tight lock hard bump turns. You could increase shock compression, but I don;t think that would feel right on a slow to mid speed slalom. The steering would feel “tight and heavy”. I plan to swap the front 400’s to the rear, run a stock rear sway bar and run 500’s up front with no bar. You can always “put” more understeer back in the car by lowereing rear shock rebound. But gaining rear grip will be very hard it you make the car too loose.
I’m using 4G Civic Koni’s with off the shelf valving , and GC sleeves with GC upper strut perches in the front with RSX trimmed bump stops. The springs are a little short (free length) for the Integra, but swapping the 7" springs to the rear and getting 500# 8" springs up front should fix that.
i didnt read all the other posts, so i dont know if anybody covered what im about to say…
With your konis, to create a over steer prone setup, have your front shocks at full soft, and rears at full stiff. when you go thru a corner at full throttle, youll hold tight, and if you think you cant make it through, let off the throttle, the rear end will slide out a lil bit, and when you feel that you can turn properly, get back on the throttle. thats how i have my konis set up for the track, i havent tested it yet on the track, but it helps a ton when i go joyriding. if you have the shocks at full soft front and rear, and then turn them both up to full stiff, you arent changing the ride at all, try different combinations of stiffness in the front and rear til you get what you like. ive got 500 lbs in front and 400 lbs in rear on my car (ground control), its nice. ive also got the suspension techniques front and rear sway bars. the rear makes a ton of difference! very good stuff
Originally posted by jasyatz I have found that for autocrossing a higher front spring rate with a smaller front sway bar and a smaller rear spring rate with a larger rear sway bar suits my driving style better. You will get less off corner inside wheel spin with a small (or no) front sway bar…
Though there are definitely many factors in how a car feels, I don’t think this is good general advice. Reducing inside wheel spin means you need to increase/retain front traction, and stiffer springs up front will reduce that relative to the rear. Plenty of people prefer a front stiff setup, but a rear-stiff setup is commonly accepted as optimal for a FWD as front stiff is optimal for RWD. The books mentioned above will help you understand why.
True, but understeer can be tuned out more easily than oversteer can be tuned out. With a higher front rate and no swaybar, you can rotate the car with a lift late brake. Should you get into trouble, it is a lot easier to recover than with a higher rear spring rate and BIG rear sway bar.
Alot of debate over this subject has already been done. For those who ask the questions and not read the books, I always will give setup advice a little on the safer end of performance. Whence you reach the traction limit of your tires, the mild understeer you get at different events with different surfaces, can easily be tuned out with tire pressure and shock settings. Where as swapping spring rates and sway bars at an event in between sessions becomes more difficult. Also a bit easier if you guess wrong to drive an Understeering car fast, than an oversteering one…
I don’t know about you, but I HATE chasing my tail…
Honestly, its not whether you have front stiff spring rates and a huge rear sway or rear stiff spring rates and a smaller rear sway. They do the same thing. Really. In the sway bars act just like springs in lateral load transfer. So who cares how you achieve you overall rear stiff bias? Its all a matter of personal preference. Saying that its easier to control with front stiff springs and rear stiff sway bars is completely untrue.
My preference is toward the latter setup. IMO huge rear sway bars are a bandaid for your front stiff rates. But thats just my opinion.
True, but understeer can be tuned out more easily than oversteer can be tuned out.
This is BS. does it oversteer? Put stock sways back on (or take off the rear). instant understeer. A neutral handling car is way harder to get than is one of the 2 extremes.
In a faster slalom with more abrupt transitions from loaded to unloaded, a higher rear spring rate will unload the car much faster than a bigger rear sway bar…
I’m just stating what works for me…I’ve tried it all…Here in NJ especialy late in the season, pavement temps are low and grip is at a minimum. Setting it up this way makes it easier on site to tune the car. Mid season on decent pavement, setting the rear shocks more stiff is more than enough to compensate for the extra spring in the front.
To each his own…just offering a suggestion. I’ve seen a few rear stiff cars go into/through fences…Not for me…
well i just finished putting in some skunk2 550lb rears in and went around the complex real quick. surprisingly i couldnt tell the difference in ride quality, even over 25 or so speedbumps. im assuming im so used to the azenis it would take a lot more to break my spine. 700 anyone? hehe.
now to decide whether or not to swap the front st sway with the oem…
I am running 400f/500r with koni yellows and all of Ben’s Oglesport bars and stock sway bars. I also used the rear sway bar end links from Ben. I do not have any noticable understeer. The car actually feels very neutral. I was running 195/60/14 Azenis and now have switched to 205/45/16 Goodyear F1 GS D3s and it handles great with both. I am still considering putting in a stiffer rear sway bar, but not sure.
i feel so small… anywho, after reading about 10 of 20+ threads (eyes can only take so much!) on honda-tech i think i kinda have a feel for what i want now.