ok so i just picked up a b18a of a freind for 40 bucks does not have any damage to cylinder walls or any internals but has over 190k and the rings are bad. I really want to build a lsvtec and spray it BUT i want to be able to rev it higher than the stock ls… So what should i do just get a new crank and rods and pistons or what? im relatively new to engine building i dont quite understand rod ratios and compression ratios etc… ill have a local machine shop do the major work…
what are your plans all motor or turbo?
If you want to build an All-Motor LSVtec motor, the stock crank is fine as long as there is no damage to the journals. A machine shop should polish and balance it.
The stock rods will work as well, if you beef up the rod-bolts with some ARPs. The stock LS rods use the same rod-bolt as the Single Cam civic motors… they’re weak past a certain RPM, and that is why they all have the same redline (6750RPM or whatever). If you stick with the LS rods, get em balanced and shot-peened, and get the ARPs as I said. Or, go aftermarket (Eagle, Crower, BC, Manley, etc) and they all will come with some good bolts.
As far as pistons, you can again stick with OEM units. The LS ones will give you a low compression ratio and aren’t the best choice… many people opt for B16/JDM B16 or even ITR pistons for some good power. You should stick around 10 or 11:1 compression or else you run the risk of detonation/pinging, and you really don’t see huge gaines in power when raising compression, so don’t go overkill. You can go aftermarket here as well, which is good because instead of a press-fit piston, it will be a ‘free floating’ piston, which reduces the amount of energy applied to them, which means that energy can be better used by your motor.
B16 head vs GSR head. Get whatever is easier/cheaper. The GSR will give you slightly higher compression, but the B16 flows slightly better. There isn’t a huge difference that would sway me one way or the other. The other difference is Intake Manifold bolt pattern… the B16 and Type-r heads are the same pattern, so you can use an ITR manifold if you’d like… with the GSR, you have to use a GSR manifold, or an aftermarket unit made for the GSR as the bolt patterns aren’t the same as B16/Type-R.
Also, since you mentioned the age of the motor… when you order pistons and get machine work done, I would bore the cylinders to 81.5mm (stock is 81millimeter). After 190k miles of use, the cylinders aren’t perfectly round anymore, and are more-than-likely oval shaped… a simple hone might not get them perfectly round. Bore it out to 81.5mm and that will give you slightly bigger displacement (a little over 1.8liter motor), will also guarantee that the cylinders are round, and the cylinders will still be plenty thick so you don’t have to worry that you weakened them.
It is also wise to look into some ARP main bolts (main bolts hold your crank in place) because not only are the stock ones not suited for higher RPM than 7k, they have 190k miles on them. When using ARP bolts the mains have to be line-honed, which makes sure all the main-journals arwe straight and don’t get ‘twisted’ from the force of the ARP bolts (the same has to be done to the rods if using ARP bolts on stock rods). Some people dislike this, but I actually prefer it… not onlu does it ensure everything is perfectly round… but if the machine shop knows what they’re doing, they can take the measurements of your crank, and when they line-hone the block, they can dial in exact oil clearances of your choice (middle of stock spec, preferably). This let’s you use aftermarket bearings as well… King, Calico, ACL Race bearings are all a great choice. OEM is fine too, they’re all made by the same place… But with King/Calico/ACL, they all have their own teflon coating that is on the bearing that can help reduce wear on the bearings during initial start-up, and can help the overall longevity of the bearing as well.
Do some homework on lsvtecs because even you admitted that you don’t know a whole load about principles of engines etc… but hopefully some things I said help. If you have any specific questions (cam choice, valve/spring choice, etc etc etc) post em up and all of us will be more than happy to help out.
But really, you need to have a goal in mind before you start on anything else, as well as a budget. Because this stuff adds up QUICK!! Keep in mind that a stock ITR puts down about 175wheel horsepower. So do you want something like that? Maybe a little higher? Let us know and we’ll get you squared away bro.
ok if you are going to spray it, you are going to need rods. crower makes nice ones. you dont need a new crank. honda cranks come balanced so there is no need for it. talk to your tuner or engine builder and they can explain what the stroke length and piston dome and deck height has to do with all of it
Ack, I completely forgot to address the idea of n2o.
One question, why do you want to spray? For the extra couple horses or what? To be honest I really don’t like the idea of installing n2o… if you’re used to driving around non-vtec or a stock motor… I would bet that with a well-built LsVtec you wouldn’t feel like you were missing anything. If you’re going for the ‘cool factor’ of being able to push a button and yell NAWWWWZZZZ! Then seriously, its not something id recommend. But this is all my personal opinion, take it as you will. But if indeed you’re going with N2O and you’ve made your mind up about it, make sure to talk to tuners and builders as your motor will need to be built around the idea of spraying. You can’t just build a motor and later decide to slap on a nitrous kit… that’s how motors get blown up.
this is my first fullk build i had a semi built D16z6 in an eg coupe with a 150 shot and i went 13.9I Like the fact ath nitrous is cheap horsepower rather than building a turbo I can strap a bottle on and get the same numbers plus i still have 2 nitrous kits from previous cars. I am new to building motors for a purpose my z6 i just ordered parts and bolten em on and went out and banged but the motor only lasted 3-4 months and i blew it up. Not cause of the nitrous but because i was over revving it. My machinist told me i was revving too high for the rod ratio i was using.
I asked about the cranks because i was told that LS/B20 rods and the cranks cannot rev past 7k and alot of people put vtec heads on these blocks and assume it can rev high when that is not the case. Its the Lsvtec thing im new too i have done semi builds before and had a shop do the work on my b16 eg etc… but this will be the first i have done on my own from pan to valve cover…
Just wanting to do it right the first time. i would like to break into 300 hp All motor if that is even possible or as close to it as i can so when i strap the 150 shot it is that much stronger
[QUOTE=unified112;2161170]Ack, I completely forgot to address the idea of n2o.
One question, why do you want to spray? QUOTE]
Ummmmm, I would assume the reason he wants to spray is for horsepower? Did I really have to answer that?
Do you have actual experience with nitrous before you say you don’t like it? Or just have a friend who blew his stock 180k mile engine with no tune?
[QUOTE=Deceptakhan;2161205][QUOTE=unified112;2161170]Ack, I completely forgot to address the idea of n2o.
One question, why do you want to spray? QUOTE]
Ummmmm, I would assume the reason he wants to spray is for horsepower? Did I really have to answer that?
Do you have actual experience with nitrous before you say you don’t like it? Or just have a friend who blew his stock 180k mile engine with no tune?[/QUOTE]
EXACTLY!!! Nitrous is only scary when not done properly!! I plan on doing everything the proper way.
[QUOTE=Deceptakhan;2161205]
Ummmmm, I would assume the reason he wants to spray is for horsepower? Did I really have to answer that?
Do you have actual experience with nitrous before you say you don’t like it? Or just have a friend who blew his stock 180k mile engine with no tune?[/QUOTE]
facepalm Obviously the point is to get more power… My question is why go that route, what made him decide that N2O was the way he wanted to go. After the OP responded saying that he has prior experience with it and that is what he intends with this build. Fine, thats what I wanted to know… I didnt know if we had a newbie on our hands who just watched Fast And The Furious and is wanting “Two bottles… the BIG ones… And Harry, I need em TONIGHT!!” I wasnt asking YOU your opinion of it, because last time I checked, this wasn’t your build thread.
As far as my experience and/or reasons for having the opinion I do about N20… Do I have a bunch of friends who have blown their motor with Nitrous? No, most of my friends have gone with turbo chargers… Though even the OP admits to blowing a motor that was running nitrous… HMMMM…
But my brother used to work for a guy who built and tuned snowmobiles and 4wheelers and I learned a thing or two about nitrous. He had sleds running nitrous whenever the driver hit WideOpenThrottle, and the only time i saw those sleds come back due to failure was when the motors got too hot, lack of lubrication etc. But those sleds were built with the intent to spray. Meaning that pistons made with the correct alloy type (Not cast type pistons) were used, along with the right compression ratios.
This is why I said if the motor is assembled with intentions to spray nitrous, then theres no problem… but if you build an 11.5:1 compression motor then later decide to slap on a N2O kit, thats when you have issues.
I’m trying to help the guy out and give insight into building an engine… And then there’s you, picking apart my one statement and not really offering anything to this thread… But thanks anyway bud! :bye:
[QUOTE=Wishihadahonda;2161206]
EXACTLY!!! Nitrous is only scary when not done properly!! I plan on doing everything the proper way. [/QUOTE]
Thats fine, that’s all I was getting at… As I said in my previous post, if you build and tune your motor with the plan to spray, then you have no worries at all. Just have those goals and intentions ready up front when you buy your parts (Pistons and rods especially) so you dont have a part fail due to lack of planning.
Otherwise, prettymuch everything I said still stands.
From what my machinist and tuner has told me high compression is the way to go with nitrous i built the single cam basically for boost with forged internals then slapped a bottle and a tune on it and drove the piss out of it and it ran good i mean 13.9 on spray is good for a single cam with ac powersteering and full interior. BUT i was apparently over revving every time i raced. 1 because i never had it dynoed i really didnt know when it legitimatly stopped making power 2. i apparently did not have the right rod ratio to rev as high as i did.
the nitrous had nothing to do with the motor blowing at all it was tuned for it but I have a different tuner now that has been telling me if i would have built the motor for high compression and tuned if for high octane fuel i would have made significantly more power enought to where i could have ran low 13s and high 12s…
so with those thoughts I am tryin to see what is factual. I trust my tuner but i am also weary because he is not as conservative as i am he is a go big or go home kind of guy i also want to get the correct rod ratio for the ability to rev over 7k…
Should i get a vtec (gsr,b16) crank
should i get a type r or aftermarket crank?
should i just stick with the ls crank just mic and polish it have the mains line bored and get new bearing and main bolts and be done with the crank side of things
I know I want aftermarket rods…
I know I want to bore it up to 81.5 or more for the exact reason that has been stated
I know i want aftermarket rod bolts and bearings
I know I want aftermarket forged pistons to avoid melting a cast on in case of minor detonation
I know I am gonna go with an aftermarket oil pump and pan
I know I am gonna put a new water pump (probably a aftermarket gsr unit)
I Know I am gonna put a b16 head (not sure of internals definitly aftermarket)
I do not know what brand or style rods i want
I do not know what brand bolts to go with probably ARP
I do not know what brand or size bearings (both rod and main)
I do not know what brand or compression ratio pistons i want yet
Im sure the block will need to be decked on account of the miles
I am sure the head will need to be shaved on account of the miles.
Not sure what headgasket brand or thickness to go with on account of the head and block mill work
I have never assembled a motor myself so im a bit weary to do so but my machinist will not assemble or disassemble and i trust no mechanic here capable of the task
THe block i have is complete the seller had removed one piston and rod to show that the cylinders were in decent shape. it has no flywheel or crank pulley everything else is there It is a B18a1 other than that i havent a clue about it other than it has 280k on it
I think i covered everything lol And I am definitly gonna spray it and tune it no matter how i build it. I have never done a turbo and frankly i think it is a waste of money for a cool sound when i can spray for the same effect.
Like i said i am looking for close to 300hp out of the motor (notthe wheels lol) if possible or as close as i can. and able to hold up to a 150 shot. My budget is low right now but i have not a problem doing it peice by peice i have a truck i drive daily so no worrys at all on time
[QUOTE=Wishihadahonda;2161236]
Should i get a vtec (gsr,b16) crank - If you prefer… I would stick with an LS crank
should i get a type r or aftermarket crank? - Again, I would stay with LS crank
should i just stick with the ls crank just mic and polish it have the mains line bored and get new bearing and main bolts and be done with the crank side of things - Not line BORED, line HONED. There is a difference, line honed takes less material from the mains.
I know I want aftermarket rods… - Crower/BC rods are good, Im not a huge fan of Eagles. If you can afford em, Oliver/Carillo are some of THE best you can get… but thats if you want to spend 1k on rods
I know I want to bore it up to 81.5 or more for the exact reason that has been stated - 81.5mm is good. Anything over 82mm you will compromise the integrity of the stock sleeves
I know i want aftermarket rod bolts and bearings - If you stick with OEM rods, then get ARP bolts. Any good aftermarket rods will come with some good aftermarket (ARP) bolts
I know I want aftermarket forged pistons to avoid melting a cast on in case of minor detonation - JE makes some good pistons for sport compacts… But do some homework and find the best alloy mixture/type for running nitrous
I know I am gonna go with an aftermarket oil pump and pan - The OEM 96+ B-Series Vtec pump will be fine… Dont let people say that the Type-R is different, as 96+ vtec pumps are the same. The oil pan isnt a total need either, but hey, more oil capacity cant hurt.
I know I am gonna put a new water pump (probably a aftermarket gsr unit) - An OEM Type-R water pump will suffice as well
I Know I am gonna put a b16 head (not sure of internals definitly aftermarket) - Good idea… Look into Type-R LostMotionAssemblies, or the new/revised spring-type LMA that Honda offers. Cams/Springs/Valves can all be bought from whoever makes a set to match what you’re looking for. Skunk2 Pro1s would work great with 12:1+ Compression ratios
I do not know what brand or style rods i want - H-Beam designs work well, are usually rated to 600+whp
I do not know what brand bolts to go with probably ARP - See my statement above
I do not know what brand or size bearings (both rod and main) - If you have your crank polished and your block line-honed, you can go with Calico/King/ACL bearings for both mains and rods. The issue with these bearings is that they are only available in one size, so the machinist needs to know what size they are to dial in the exact oil clearances you want/need. I prefer Calico bearings, but any of those brands will get the job done.
I do not know what brand or compression ratio pistons i want yet - As I said… JE make some good pistons, as well does Aries… And you dont make huge gains with overly-huge compression numbers. 11.5:1 is a good number to shoot for.
Im sure the block will need to be decked on account of the miles - More than likely a resurface will be fine… Just enough to make it level. The more material you take off, the more cautious you have to be with your cam/piston choice. Though whatever you go with the P2V clearances should be measured anyway.
I am sure the head will need to be shaved on account of the miles. - Same as above
Not sure what headgasket brand or thickness to go with on account of the head and block mill work - OEM or Cometic if you need one thicker. For lsvtec use a vtec head gasket.
I have never assembled a motor myself so im a bit weary to do so but my machinist will not assemble or disassemble and i trust no mechanic here capable of the task - Just make sure to get some good pointers from builders as to what to check, and double check everything… Piston ring gap, oil clearances, rod/main/head bolt torque, etc.
THe block i have is complete the seller had removed one piston and rod to show that the cylinders were in decent shape. it has no flywheel or crank pulley everything else is there It is a B18a1 other than that i havent a clue about it other than it has 280k on it
I think i covered everything lol And I am definitly gonna spray it and tune it no matter how i build it. I have never done a turbo and frankly i think it is a waste of money for a cool sound when i can spray for the same effect. - Sorry, but a nitrous setup wont even compare to a turbo’d setup if both are built equally. Hell, a stock-block B16 can push 400whp with a great tune. I dont think a 250shot of n2o would work on a stock B16. But as I said, do your homework and im sure you will come up with what is right for you, im just adding my 2cents as I see it. By no means is what I say the End-All Be-All of the scenario, it’s just my views.[/QUOTE]
Questions answered in the quote.
I greatly appreciate the info i was kind of hopin we could get a bit of a discussion I know your not the only engine builder on here ya know. but you definitly got me some goood starting points. i have to deal with the crank and bearing issues first i suppose so that way the machinist will know waht to do with the mains.
Hehehe i totally agree with you… Discussion is a good thing, it helps us all learn and understand what is good, and what is not so good for the goals any particular person is trying to achieve.
Search for the build thread of the user buymysoul on here… he’s definitely got some good info floating around in his thread.
One more thing on the crank… make sure they just Polish it, NEVER grind a Honda crank… if you take too much material off the journals (ie grinding it) you will throw bearings. The inner material is a soft metal that will get debris implanted in it and it will basically be an expensive paperweight after that. Once the machinist balances and polishes the crank… he will need your block so they can measure/machine the mains and they can go from there. As far as I know, the Standard size bearings fall right in the middle of oem spec, so that is the size of clearances they need to shoot for. But do some homework to find the exact thickness of whichever bearing you go with, so you know what the clearances/tolerances need to be.
[QUOTE=unified112;2161230]
As far as my experience and/or reasons for having the opinion I do about N20… Do I have a bunch of friends who have blown their motor with Nitrous? No, most of my friends have gone with turbo chargers… Though even the OP admits to blowing a motor that was running nitrous… HMMMM…
But my brother used to work for a guy who built and tuned snowmobiles and 4wheelers and I learned a thing or two about nitrous. He had sleds running nitrous whenever the driver hit WideOpenThrottle, and the only time i saw those sleds come back due to failure was when the motors got too hot, lack of lubrication etc. But those sleds were built with the intent to spray. Meaning that pistons made with the correct alloy type (Not cast type pistons) were used, along with the right compression ratios.
This is why I said if the motor is assembled with intentions to spray nitrous, then theres no problem… but if you build an 11.5:1 compression motor then later decide to slap on a N2O kit, thats when you have issues.
I’m trying to help the guy out and give insight into building an engine… And then there’s you, picking apart my one statement and not really offering anything to this thread… But thanks anyway bud! :bye:
Thats fine, that’s all I was getting at… As I said in my previous post, if you build and tune your motor with the plan to spray, then you have no worries at all. Just have those goals and intentions ready up front when you buy your parts (Pistons and rods especially) so you dont have a part fail due to lack of planning.
Otherwise, prettymuch everything I said still stands.[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t picking apart your statement. You asked a really stupid question (kinda like why turbocharge?..Uh, to raise my oil temps duh!) so I had to answer it.
He made it clear why he wanted to use nitrous (power, and cost effective, and simpler than a turbo build). ANd yes, he did say he blew his motor, and after disassembly it was deemed becuase he revved too high. Not nitrous. Don’t take it out of context to fuel your argument. It happens with any power adder. Take a boosted LS, spin it to 10k and tell me what happens. Are we going to blame the failure on boost?
As far as your other advice it seems pretty good tho. Only things I may add…
Eagle H-beams are not that bad. So they are not nearly the cost of Carrilo, nor weigh as little, but do the trick. I own a set of Eagles that saw 11k (pistons destroyed, kissed teh valves) got them spec’ed at the machine shop and they are good to reuse. Not the best, but on a bugdet you can’t beat em. imho
I do agree it will be hard to see 400+ HP with N/A nitrous combo. Mostly because to get a healthy N/A you will need high comp, aggressive cams, high revs. Don’t know what will happen if a 150 shot is thrown onto 12:1 compression at high revs. BUt a properly reinforced LS revving to 7k on a 150 shot should be fun, don’t foget the tune. More important than all the hardware imho. The most built engine will still detonate and blow up if conditions aren’t right. LIke unified said, he knows of 400+hp engines that have never been cracked open, all in the tune.
ANd with decent compression, cams, etc it should still be a pretty healthy motor (IE fun) without the spray.
Also if you want to rev higher go with a GSR block. Not just for the better R/S, but the other support mods. I almost built an LS V, then started looking into the block girdle and oil squirters, abesnt on non vtec engine. Not brought up all the time, but I think they are an important addition. Ditto on newr LMA, get the spring type over the gas filled. I believe the 99-00 civic SI heads had these stock. Never got to try them, ut comparing my old GSR head to a 00 civic head I have, the LMA are gone on the GSR and nice and soft and no noise on the SI (just tapping them with muh finger). I would also recommend just getting them with the head, as they are over $250 new (inline4). Which considering you can get good condition newer heads for less thsan 500 why add that cost to it, spend it on valvetrian or cams.
As far as hardware for your LS-V, check out Golden Eagle. I would also recommend adding an oil-cooler while you are at it.
We now have a discussion! You make valid points too… and as I said earlier, I personally dont like nitrous. But from the OPs first post I didn’t know that he had prior experience with it, so that was why I asked what make him want it. If I knew he ran it before then I wouldn’t have really gone on about it.
As far as the GSR block vs the LS… the main ‘upgrade’ would be the block girdle, which we all know keeps things stable at high rpm. As far as the oil squirters… they aren’t really needed. Ever compare a stock LS rod to a GSR rod? The LS has a hole through it, from the main journal all the way up to the wrist-pin… it keeps the pin/piston lubricated and cooled just as the oil squirters do… and most any aftermarket b-series rod will do the same thing. Which is why Golden Eagle and other companies sell the oil-squirter delete kit. (Also needed if you stroke the engine, as with the extra travel the pistons will hit and break the stock squirters).
The gsr will be the better candidate for high revs simply due to the block girdle, no doubt. But as long as you upgrade the LS with some good rod/main/head bolts, the non-vtec B18s can rev to 9k all day and not have crank-walk. IMO, if you have a gsr and ls on hand… run the gsr… but if you have the LS block on hand, don’t be scared to run that… lsvtec has been proven over and over again that it can be perfectly reliable as long as the proper precautions are taken.
Newer style LMAs can be had from honda for like $220, if you can find a place that will price-match online vendors… MajesticHonda seels em for $220, shipped I believe. They’re the shit. My bro bought a set for his motor and they are indeed worth the dough. I would have picked up a set but my head had type-rs in it which were still in good shape… being that you’re going through the whole motor, I would definitely get some new spring-style ones… or at least type-rs. The b16s aren’t the best. They work, but will probably leave your head ticking lol.
Ok.
If you’re going to spray use the following.
- a forged piston. nitrous is a form of boost. if you want to rev and be able to handle it properly, use a forged piston. do it right once and never worry again.
- upgrade your rod, main, and head studs to arp units. no reason to bore the mains unless otherwise instructed by a machine shop.
- ls crank is fine. all oem honda cranks are forged units. do NOT get it turned. if a machine shop tells you different, tell em you’re going somewhere else. micropolish is all that’s needed. if any more is required, get another ls crank.
- replace all the bearings and gaskets and seals.
- leave the redlines alone. get a proper tuning system like ECTune and just have it tuned properly for daily street use. Everyone thinks redlines are the end all be all. a dyno and skilled tuner will be able to get the most power out of the car and adjust the redline accordingly. Plan on reving to about 8k and stick to an itr/ctr or equivalent camshaft. it’s plenty good for what you want. too much overlap with a huge cam is not always great for boost.
- get a good exhaust system and header.
- use oem pumps, belts, seals, gaskets, etc etc. you can use an aftermarket pan but the rest is not needed. save a few bucks and get a password jdm pan baffle welded into your oem pan and be done with it.
- invest in a block girdle too. I like endyns unit.
- if you use acl bearings, drill them to utilize the ls rod squirter, thereby not needing a gsr c1 block.
- spend money on some nice gauges and monitor your oil pressure, egt, and nitrous pressures.
- Get a nice stage 1 or 2 clutch depending on your power goals. Also highly suggest a lighter flywheel.
Thats all i can think of right now.
ok i just got the motor to the house and looked at it and the previous owner has been running city water through this motor it has a lot of build up like calcium build up from the hard water…I know the block cant be hot tanked or acid dipped because it is aluminum so how the hell do i clean that off?
Who said you cant hot-tank it? Thats precisely what you do actually.
Or if you have the money and really want the outside of the motor clean, have it Soda Blasted… Its like a baking soda solution that gets all the oil and dirt and grime out of the aluminum. Otherwise, have it hot-tanked and that will get the crap out of the water jackets and stuff. Same goes for the head, actually.
The only two machine shops in this town said it cannot be hot tanked because it is aluminum they pretty much told me the only way to clean the block is carb cleaner… and that i should just clr the jackets… 
You do NOT hot tank aluminum blocks. They blast them sometimes but the heat can cause more harm than good.
FYI for future readers - - - Steel wool, brakleen, wire brush, eagle one etching mag wheel cleaner, and Eastwood Alumablast = win. Do NOT get the cleaner anywhere near the cyl walls or jackets.