Here are the parts I’ve collected so far for my build…
Lightly P&P’ed B16 head, milled .001 w/ new OEM valve seals and GSR cams
Skunk2 Pro ITR Intake
Hondata IM gasket
ARP Head studs
ARP Rod bolts
PW0 ecu
Obd0 Engine Harness (mines been hacked up by previous owners)
Data System VTC 810 V-tec Controller (Obd0 Oldskool controller)
P72 Pistons
Other parts that I’ll be getting for the build:
GSR Water Pump
GSR Oil Pump
GSR Timing Belt
LS Oem Head Gasket FullRace.com LS/vtec Conversion Oil Line Kit
Blox Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator
New Hasting Piston Rings
New ACL Bearings
AEM Adjustable Cam Gears
4-1 Header and 2 1/2" Exhaust
Fidanza 7.5 lb. Flywheel
I’ve been reading up on this for months, but I would like to hear about some other peoples personal experience with any of these parts, or the other parts that I’m thinking about using. My train of thought is this… A full engine rebuild (All bearings, gaskets, honed cylinders, etc… ) using the GSR Pistons on my stock LS Rods and Crank. This will put my compression ratio somewhere around 10.55:1 according to http://www.zealautowerks.com. I plan to have the rotating assembly balanced, and the intake, throttle body, and header port matched. I’m trying to stay obd0, but if it’s untunable to my satisfaction that way, I might go to obd1 with a hondata s100.
Here are my questions…
1: Is 10.55:1 compression about as high as I can go without having to use high octane fuel every time I fuel up, or am I going to have to do that anyway? If that’s not the highest I can go using crappy gas now and then, what is?
2: Am I going to be happy chipping this PW0 and getting a tune, or should I just sell that ECU and get an obd1 and Hondata?
3: If I do stick with the P72 Pistons, would my CR be too high to ever boost this setup? I wouldn’t mind leaving that option open.
4: Anyone ever had problems personally with a setup like this, or any of the parts?
what is low octane fuel for you? what is high? 87? 93? it wont detonate on 87 with a stock ecu at low load, or standard street drive, but I think the more important questions is if you tune your car on high octane, dont expect not to have issues running low octane and pushing your car.
I would go OBD1 and hondata. i picked up 10whp from 3k to 8200 vs a chipped and dyno tuned ECU.
I have had problems with piggyback vtec controllers. specially the SFC vtec. I would advise against anything other than Hondata but thats me.
make sure your hondata IM gasket is trq’d down correctly. they tend to come loose over time causing vacumm leaks
no need for a FPR, on your setup. stock 240cc injectors will work fine. i would recommend 270cc or 310 instead of the FPR
don’t like AEM cam gears either, stay away from them. get something else like skunk2 or BDL… but why get them anyways if you are just running stock cams? you’re not going to pick up 10whp with cam gears on stock cams.
what is low octane fuel for you? what is high? 87? 93?
I would go OBD1 and hondata. i picked up 10whp from 3k to 8200 vs a chipped and dyno tuned ECU.
I have had problems with piggyback vtec controllers. specially the SFC vtec. I would advise against anything other than Hondata but thats me.
no need for a FPR, on your setup. stock 240cc injectors will work fine. i would recommend 270cc or 310 instead of the FPR
But why get them anyways if you are just running stock cams? you’re not going to pick up 10whp with cam gears on stock cams.[/QUOTE]
Well, I don’t mind using 93 octane, but if I got in a bind financially for some reason, it would be great to know that I could run 87 or 89 without detonation… I guess about 11:1 is about as high as I can go on pump gas safely, so I’ll probably stick with the P72 Pistons for now.
So Hondata really makes that much difference eh? And I can do all the tweaking on my own… tsk tsk… That’s something I can easily do after the build though right?
As far as the vtec controller goes, I’ve read that you can broaden your power band a little bit by changing the vtec engage to start a little sooner. That’s all that I would use the piggy back for.
Question, doesn’t raising fuel pressure effectively change the cc of the injector? Can’t I get my stock injectors to spray 310 cc’s by jacking the pressure up 5 or 10 psi?
About the cam gears… For 1, the head has been milled. That alone throws off the cam timing just a bit. Also, my understanding is that while tuning on the dyno, you should advance both the intake and exhaust cam to get better low end power. (Since it’s not going to be a high compression and hi rev monster…)
its not that cut and dry about the cam timing thing… trq one way top end another… its just a rule of thumb, but every car is different.
In my experience. i’ve found that the most optimum setting is usually the one that makes pretty much the most trq and hp at the same time. its all getting a good cyl pressure at the right moment in the chamber. don’t think about cam timing as absolute.
p72 pistons on pr4 rods requires machining to fit. it is not bolt on. if you want bolt on, go with p61’s or pr3’s
yes an fpr technically raises the CC. but you are changing the pressure the injector sprays out at, not just volume. in any case, you dont need it. you just need to increase the duty cycle of your stock injectors to compensate. and you do this using hondata or crome.
as for vtec controllers. hondata or crome would control that as well, just as a chipped ecu would. as long as your vtec controller ONLY controls when the solenoid opens… then its ok… but… it doesnt change your fuel or ign maps… so then what happens when you are still dumping normal fuel and ign maps onto the vtec cam at 4400 before vtec kicks in and you are flooring it? it leans out. see its not that cut and dry as you think.
SFC vtec controllers take signal directly from the MAP. and they cause problems, because many instances they will cause the MAP to error out basically causing your ECU to think your MAP is busted, and limp-moding your car.
sucks on the track or on the fwy when you have to drop your car into neutral at 85-100mph cuz your car dies, and crank it over until it starts while you are driving. its the difference between winning and losing.
trust me i’ve been there and done that. and started just like you with basically the same ideas 10 years ago
btw about your head mill… .001 is almost like a resurface. nothing too crazy. i wouldnt bother.
So basically, instead of spending cash on FPR, and adjustable cam gears (which would net me at least ($200), I should sell my Pw0 ecu, and vtec controller and get a P28 with Hondata installed? Get an 0bd0 to Obd1 jumper harness and that would be the ecu part of my build… Other than a tune on the Dyno and maybe an obd1 distro so that I don’t have oil leaking all over my block from rigging an obd0 to work with my obd1 head.
See, I had planned on adding more fuel via the FPR, so that the vtec engaging sooner wouldn’t be a problem, but I guess that would make the car run rich whenever I didn’t have my foot in it. That’s really not efficient (or effective) now that you’ve made me think about it.
Then get b17 pistons on LS Rods, and rebuild the bottom end with new rings, bearings, etc… Looks like it would give me about the same compression. Aren’t P61 pistons harder to come by though? I wouldn’t mind using a Pr3 except won’t that take my cr through the roof? Like a 12:1? I want it to be reliable, as it’s my dd.
ack, how do you know 12.1 is reliable?? and speaking about reliable, what do you mean by “reliable?”
the OP is asking for a compression he can safely drive on using 87 octane. for this, i’d say mid 10’s are the limit. but cheap gas is cheap gas. use premium when you can get it.
as for p61’s if you go to the acura dealer just ask for p61 pistons… they’ll special order them from japan if need be. no worries, and no cost to you. or buy online.
what i dont get is why you want to build an LSvtec thats going to be basically pretty weak up top with a low comp bottom end. its almost like you’re wasting hp by not taking a few extra steps
just build a pr3 piston bottom end and throw an LS head on it to lower compression until you can get bigger cams, then go LSvtec; since your bottom end is already built.
it only gets difficult to tune if you start boosting. but i wouldnt mind boosting a stock ITR motor, which is about 11:1 anyways, i’ve seen up to 11.5:1 boosted. great response and power off boost, and less PSI to make power than a low cr motor. I cant gaurantee the same succes for you. depends on the tuner and the turbo kit you peice together.
you have such a mild build I wonder how much you are really going to punch it.
my bad…i didnt see the whole 87 oct thing but as far as 93 12:1 is still streetable ive talk to people who have a setup with high compression as high as 12:5 on 93 0ct daily driven say there setup ran smother than there stock motor of coarse with a very good tune
[QUOTE=viprtwo;1965612]
what i dont get is why you want to build an LSvtec thats going to be basically pretty weak up top with a low comp bottom end. its almost like you’re wasting hp by not taking a few extra steps
just build a pr3 piston bottom end and throw an LS head on it to lower compression until you can get bigger cams, then go LSvtec; since your bottom end is already built.
it only gets difficult to tune if you start boosting. but i wouldnt mind boosting a stock ITR motor, which is about 11:1 anyways, i’ve seen up to 11.5:1 boosted. great response and power off boost, and less PSI to make power than a low cr motor. I cant gaurantee the same succes for you. depends on the tuner and the turbo kit you peice together.
you have such a mild build I wonder how much you are really going to punch it.[/QUOTE]
Who said that I wanted to build “an LSvtec thats going to be basically pretty weak up top with a low comp bottom end”? I want it to have a great top end and have as high CR in the bottom end as I can have on pump gas. Maybe I just shouldn’t worry about being able to drive on lower octane fuels. But why build with high CR pistons now, and not go vtec until I get larger cams? Wouldn’t USDM P72’s or PR3’s work fine with stock GSR cams? I could always upgrade cams later… That’s a pretty simple process compared to the ls vtec conversion. I don’t want to miss or skip any steps, I just don’t have ALL the cash together to do EVERY thing I want to do yet. So I want to do the best things that I can do for the $ right now that don’t impead the process of other things later.
any vtec motor is rated for premium fuel only, check any manual or gas lid on a stock vtec equiped honda. i wouldnt try running anything lower anyway. if you look at it, premium is 20cents higher on average than reg. if you fill up 10gal thats only 2 bucks more. idk what your fuel prices are right now but right now its about 2 bucks a gal for prem. and its only about $20-$25 a tank. that isnt that bad if you ask me
im running a high comp. ls/vtec every day. im at 12.4:1 c/r.
93 octane and a good tune. she runs great!!!
before this build, i ran CTR pistons on a mild ls/vtec build, stock gsr head, that thing screamed even!! if you wanted to save some $ , go that route.[/QUOTE]
Thank you…hey can you shoot me an email on your build illack91@aol.com I’m trying to come up with build Ideas but it gets so expensive u might as well go k
ls vtec is as simple as tapping the back of the head. the most important part of your build is NOT the vtec head on the block. its building the BLOCK.
all i am saying is dont short change yourself with the bottom end by looking for lower compression because you cant “afford” premium right now. you are rebuilding the bottom end with great stuff, and then not maximizing your potential because you want to run 87 octane? doesnt make sense. unless you dont mind building it again. for that, you might as well just throw a stock b16 motor in your car and beat the crap out of it and forego building the bottom end.
why dont you maximize what you can? a 10.5 cr LSvtec motor is basically a 160 whp maximum with gsr cams.
decide if you want to boost or not. then chose your comp.
Vprtwo, you’re absolutely right bro… I think I’ll do the right thing with the bottom end, and not be concerned with having to use higher octane fuel. I guess that’s a small price to pay for good, dependable, performance. In my frugality, I try to achieve the same results as others without spending the same amount of money. This is one project that I shouldn’t shortcut. I think what I really want to do is put USDM P73 Pistons on LS Rods and Crank. That should get my CR up there about as high as I think I would want it.