resleeve or block guard

HEy qwkteg125,

Block guards are an ill-conceived design that any engine builder in their right mind would never consider. Closing off an open deck block at or very near the point of combustion destroys any consideration of effective cooling.

You wrote.

“more significant factors that lead to overheating issues besides having a girdle supporting the cylinder sleeves. poor tuning comes to mind”

Since when did a girdle support cylinder sleeves? Girdles support bottom end crank bearings!

I suggest you get some more of that “first hand experience” off the net!

Originally posted by DB2-R81
[B]Hey Steve,

Yes, I did but I was more interested in there Lexan windows. The fans have been around for quite a while, Lordco sells them and the last time I was at the main shop in Burnaby they had lots of them. They are at least 2" thinner so yes; you could save some room between your turbo and the radiator. [/B]

i picked up a flex a lite fan from there when i did my turbo install. After we pulled the AC :(, oh well more space.

hey marc were you having a bad night or something???

just as i wouldn’t question your knowledge on suspension tuning, i don’t think you should question mine in regards to boosted honda applications.

i never claimed blockguards to be the cure-all wonder for our motors. i merely stated that overheating problems shouldn’t be the reason one doesn’t use them.

plenty of aftermarket sleeves for hondas use the so-called “horrible” closed deck design. i am sure you have seen pics of aebs sleeves, and are therfore aware that they use a closed deck design. jg sleeved motors also use a closed deck design. darton’s new sleeves (may be what aebs uses, not sure) share this design as well. in fact, one could argue that, if installed by a capable machinist to ensure they do not slide downward, darton sleeves would prove superior to GEM’s sleeves, due to the fact that these sleeves are centrifugally cast. now please don’t tell me that these companies do not know how to design an engine.

i know people who are running some of these blocks in their street cars who have yet to suffer from the overheating issues that you state occur from “closing off an open deck block at or very near the point of combustion…” i currently have a plain blockguard in my car and have never experienced problems of any sort. even when my car was turboed, i never had cooling issues. now, as time (and money) permits, there will be GEM sleeves in my future, but currently, my only regret in regards to the blockguard is the fact that it still utilizes stock sleeves, so i am limited to the amount of boost i can safely run. i will tell you this though, i feel safer boosting on stock sleeves supplemented with a blockguard than on the factory sleeves alone. that is all i meant when i said people should acquire some experience with this type of setup, because as i just stated, not everyones car will overheat.

also, please excuse me if i was incorrect in describing a blockguard as a “girdle” & not a “brace” or whatever you think is the most appropriate term. personally, i use the term interchangeably because to my understanding, a “girdle” is something which offers additional support (ie a girdle which supports a sagging tummy), just as a “brace” is something that offers additional support as well (a brace to hold a fence straight). i am well aware that for honda motors, there also exists an additional “girdle” or “brace” for the crank, be it factory or aftermarket. in fact, there is a “girdle” supporting my bottom end right now!

i really respect your views expressed on this board as i can tell you are an educated member & would never intentionally seek you out to start a flame war. so sorry if i came off as offensive to your comments, that was never the purpose of my original post.

Hey qwkteg125,

Sorry if I came off sounding rude not my intention accept my apology.

But I have too disagree and question your knowledge in regards to current boosted honda applications.

Block guard = old school, attempt at problem solving
Open Deck, Block Re-sleeving = current technology

A block guard will prevent H2O form circulating in the water jackets, robbing the combustion chamber of critical cooling, in an area where heat is generated internally and heat leads to detonation and pre combustion issues.

Block guards do not prevent bore distortion or splitting as many people believe. Maximum side loading occurs fairly low in the bore not at the top of the cylinder where a block guard installs.

Sure you can run down a ¼ mile with minimal problems, try running it back on the cool off lane and you have got problems.

Guys use this also but does not imply they don’t have cooling problems.

You may not agree with me, you know my position so here is another viewpoint debate it with him. Block Guards

very interesting thanks for the opinions :slight_smile:
i like those GEM sleeves.
one question, can i order the sleeves and have them installed locally? or do i have to ship them the block?
i know i could probably ask Golden Eagle, but, was hoping someone here would be able to answer.

GEM does not sell their sleeves alone, you have to ship your block to them. And if your really interested, your gonna have to call them :stuck_out_tongue:

thanks Ray,
did you ship your block to them?
how much does the block weigh?
minus the pistons/rods/crank

my bare block weighed around 50lbs with the box and stuffing.
Give them a call or check with www.ups.com

Marc and Don,
I’m not adding into this arguement. I’m just stating my experience with blockguards. I was running a nuformz block guard before also. I had overheating problems and such but my timing was retard a dew degrees for safer boosting so im sure that didnt help. but once I removed it, no more cooling issues. On the other hand, I have a friend with a nuformz blockguard also and he seems to have no cooling issues. I dont know why but it works for some people. If someone is on a tight budget, the STR blockguard looks like a nice design but I wouldnt boost any higher with a blockguard than with stock sleeves since the lower area can still crack.

Hey Ray,

I am not familiar with the STR block guard, what is different about it form other block guards? Does it have lightening holes? He he! just joking, I have never seen it.

I’m planning on a 9,500 reving NA B17, and I’ve heard both that I need some kinda block guard and that I don’t. I also know that Dan doesn’t use one. Woule those Eagel Sleeves with the nubs that reinforce them up top be overkill?

Do I need some kinda reinforcement or not?

-Steve

If I’m not mistaken, the STR blockguard is scalloped, to allow the coolant to pass through a little better … Nuformz is the same.

IMO, I would not use a blockguard, and wait to install sleeves … I am not too keen on sending my motor out tho, I would rather have a local shop install the sleeves … Golden Eagle won’t sell the sleeves alone?

http://www.tappauto.com/hondapage1.htm

This guy has a sleeved/O-ringed block … looks tight, and he pounds 401hp at the wheels … local shop install. We have a place nearby that has installed sleeves in Sprint car motors for 30 years, and I plan to use them … they have also done turbo B18s.


these sleeves looks like they might create some heat problems … the coolant tracts are not as efficient as the GEM design … but the O-ringing should help to solve the sinking problem.
I don’t think there is any question that the sleeves/turbo will create more heat, but proper tuning and the right setup will allow the motor to survive. I don’t think anyone is going to consistently run 35psi of boost … :smiley:

Call me stupid, but what actually holds the sleeves in place in the block? I’ve never taken my block apart (yet…), and I was wondering what holds the sleeves in place. Oh, and I think Neil might want to ARCHIVE THIS

Sleeves are pressed into the block, by a freezing process … damn i forget . someone help me …

my dad builds race ATV’s specifically Suzuki LT500 engines…

when the cylinder is resleeved, the cylinder (block in our case) is heated in an oven. the sleeve is put in the freezer.

the cyclinder is expanded by heat, and the sleeve has shrunk by freeze.
then they are pressed into the block or cylinder. it has to be done quickly because of the heat transfer.

this also works great for pressing in bearings. some times you can actually drop the bearing in with no resistance.

i’m not sure if this is how they resleeve the blocks, i just know this is how we do the ATV cylinders.

it seems logical that they’d do something similar to the block.

yeah, that’s it!:wink:

Ok, cool, that makes complete sense! Thanks!

If it hasn’t been said already, “ARCHIVE THIS”

archive this

some valuable info:)

thanks,

Leif

Originally posted by redlineintegra
these sleeves looks like they might create some heat problems … the coolant tracts are not as efficient as the GEM design … but the O-ringing should help to solve the sinking problem.
I don’t think there is any question that the sleeves/turbo will create more heat, but proper tuning and the right setup will allow the motor to survive. I don’t think anyone is going to consistently run 35psi of boost … :smiley: [/B]

The purpose of O-ringing blocks is to provide a stronger head gasket seal. Oftentimes it’s used along with copper head gaskets. I don’t see how this can affect the stability of a block guard.

As for making 400+ horsepower, I hope you have cheap access to a dyno. If not then remember to factor in wads of cash to tune the beast. Have fun tuning that ecu…

And just to throw something else into the mix about block guards & sleeves. Has anyone seen this car before? 546 hp running just a NuFormz block guard. Kinda makes you wonder…


Tsou

The purpose of O-ringing blocks is to provide a stronger head gasket seal. Oftentimes it’s used along with copper head gaskets. I don’t see how this can affect the stability of a block guard.

I never mentioned anything about a blockguard with the O-ringing … I meant that since the sleeves do have a tendency to sink a little, O-ringing and a proper head gasket will effectively seal the gap the could have been created. As well, the sleeves are left a little higher, to compensate for the sinking problem.

As for the dyno … tuning is where it’s at … gotta make all those parts work together …

That DRT civic uses a DFI … wow … woulda thought they would go with a faster processor … hmm … it’s also a B18c … little better to start with … I am lookin at a b18a. But The guys at DRT have been building huge HP Hondas for a while … didn’t they have a 600hp street driven H22A Civic? …