I picked up a new DA this weekend. 3rd gear is unusable 80% of the time (I’m going to put my extra GS-R tranny in it), but it’s only got 150k miles, working ABS(!), no CEL, everything works, alarm with motion sensor and remote start (yes, it’s a 5-speed), OZ rims with 205-45-16 (switching to fat fives with 195-55-15 snow tires today), AEM CAI, and a $1500 (so he said) suspension setup. Ground Control/Eibach. It’s 750 front/800 rear, setup for autocross. But a car set up for oversteer on the track sounds like something I don’t wanna drive in the Colorado winter. He also gave me some 550 (all 4) Eibach springs. It’s also got some beefy sway bars and a rear strut tower brace.
I’ve never owned a modified car before, and I usually like to keep things stock, but I cannot find the stock spring rates for a DA. The numbers I found online that seem to be probable are 190/129 or 263/143. Insight? I know next to NOTHING about suspension.
Also, the tires have camber wear. No camber kit.
The seller said the ride height is adjustable, so I’m wondering how far I need to raise it to bring the camber into spec.
I’ve never had a complaint with the stock handling of a DA. I wouldn’t mind (and might actually prefer) SLIGHTLY stiffer suspension, and a SLIGHT drop in height from stock, but I’d like to be able to drive over bumps and dips like a normal person, be able to dominate snowy/icy roads like in my previous DAs, not be wearing out tires prematurely, and not need to 2-hand white-knuckle the steering wheel to keep the car in a straight line over less-than-perfect roads. So I guess what I’m asking for is a little guidance on how to achieve those goals. Lighter springs and a “lift?” Throw on the 550 springs (this would be an improvement from current, free, and maybe a necessity with a slight drop, but might not eliminate the tracking problem)?
I’m already hearing “switch everything back to stock” as a response…
If that’s the case, could I get decent money selling what I’ve got?
No way! I now have 2 DB2s and 2 DAs, and this is the one I’m keeping. With the low miles, working ABS, and low price I paid for it…
I could probably sell the rims and suspension for what I paid for the whole car. Definitely keeping this one.
Tim, I’ll go ahead and reply here instead of your email, but don’t hesitate to email if you need anything.
“$1500 suspension setup” Is a bit of an exaggeration unless there’s more we’re not seeing. Those shocks run a little over $500 new and the GC coilovers are around $300 I believe. But since he bought extra springs that might be where the extra cost is coming from - Eibach springs aren’t cheap, or perhaps he’s adding the sway bar(s) as well in that cost. I would also contact the seller to see if they are the “off the shelf” Koni Sport (yellow) shocks or if they are perhaps “RACE” valved shocks. Those spring rates are significantly higher than what is generally recommended for the “off the shelf” valving.
I agree that a 750/800 spring rate setup is not a good idea for winter, not only are those rates REALLY stiff but the rear is stiffer than the front which is typically done to induce a little bit more tendency to oversteer rather than understeer. If there’s a really large rear sway bar then this also wouldn’t be very good for the snow. I don’t remember the stock spring rates, but the second set of numbers you posted sound about right.
Just because the tires are worn on the inside does not mean that your problem is camber. It could be the problem, but without an alignment you won’t know for sure. The car doesn’t look all that low, so even without a camber kit you shouldn’t have massive negative camber. Without knowing what the exact specs are it’s hard to say, but my guess would be the toe is off. And if you correct the toe you could run that level of camber and not have too excessive of wear.
GC and Eibach are not the same company. Ground Control uses Eibach springs for their coilover kits.
Hard to say what you should do because I’m not sure what your personal preference is but based on what you’ve said so far I’d suggest going back to stock springs or replacing the coilovers with a good lowering spring. Something like the H&R OE Sport or Sport lowering springs. I’d also figure out what your sway bar setup is like and possibly go back to stock or a more mild bar depending on your preference… And you’ll definitely want to get an alignment.
You can definitely sell some of the suspension parts, but likely the most valuable part is the shocks and you may want to just keep those since they are quite nice. If you’re going to sell the springs you should try the Road Race & AutoX forum on Honda-tech.
That or i can give you the 350 450 springs on my car now in exchange for the 550. Aligning these cars yourself is pretty easy and if you raise it back up it will bring the camber closer to spec. Otherwise the only way to fix it is with front upper arms and rear camber tie rods.
Alright, some things have changed since yesterday. Here’s more info (and questions):
First off, just switching from 205-45-16 to 195-55-15 tires made a HUGE difference in the handling. It’s actually bearable, even with the 750/800 springs. After I switched them, I had a chance to drive in about an inch of slush and snow in a parking lot last night, testing the turning and braking, and I have no complaints. But that’s different than sheer ice at highway speeds. I do like the idea of handling benefits from a stiffer-than-stock suspension, so now I’m thinking I might just be okay with something like a 450/350 setup. I guess my questions now are:
Would that still be too stiff for safe handling on an icy, curvy highway?
And:
If my Koni shocks are indeed the base model, is that too stiff for them? If so, what rates should I be considering?
Attached is a before and after alignment I got today (I got lifetime alignments). They told me they adjusted the toe as much as they could, but if I raise the car about an inch (as I plan on anyway), they should be able to adjust it more. They also said the camber should return almost to spec. Thoughts on that prediction? Are the current specs going to cause me grief with tire wear?
Also attached is a pic I snapped of the front suspension, if that helps to give more info. I also looked at the sway bars, and they are significantly thicker than my thumb (you can kinda see it in the pic). I’m seriously retarded when it comes to this stuff, so my apologies for vague info.
Colin: Thank you so much for your time and opinions. Research can only get me so far, so it’s nice to have real-world info. I’m driving to Vail for T-Day and don’t wanna die (haha).
Chris: What brand are your springs, and how many miles are on them?
Yeah, that added tire profile is essentially working as your suspension for bump absorption, which helps ride quality quite a bit. 450/350 is still kind of stiff but I’m on super low profile tires. My car is pretty much a track only car and rarely driven on the street so I put the 450 in the rear for added oversteer, even then my car seems pretty manageable from a handling perspective. 450 in the front would give it inherent understeer and make it more stable/ predictable in the winter.
The alignment specs you currently have will affect alignment and cause premature wear on the inside, especially the camber in the rear. I don’t really understand why they couldn’t fix the toe though as these cars have a huge range of adjustment… I’ve also found that raising and lowering the rear doesn’t seem to affect toe that much.
me and 2 of my friends all have Integras that we are building as track cars and I’ve worked on all of them including alignment so I have a decent amount of experience with setting these cars up. If you continue to have issues with getting enough toe adjustment I guess you could buy adjustable toe tie rods for the rear for additional range beyond stock… My car is lower than yours and I didn’t even really have to touch my rear toe.
Don’t worry about your sway bars, that wont impact ride quality but does improve handling, if your rear is super huge it could give you some oversteer bias, but these are fwd cars, a little gas corrects things pretty quick.
Stock Koni shocks can easily handle 450/ 350. That’s what I have right now. I think the max for them is around 600ish.
the springs on my car are Megan?mugen whatever. They have less than 500 miles on them, less than a year old, basically 3 track weekends as I never drive this car on the street. They are great, just that I will be getting stickier track tires and therefor will probably need more spring.
My buddies and I have “build” parties pretty often in Denver with our tegs. where we just work on our cars and drink beer. Next time we do one you should stop by.
Chris is right about the tires, you’re adding more sidewall so the ride will be smoother due to some extra cushion.
450/350 isn’t too harsh, should be a decent street setup. I haven’t driven a modded Integra in inclement weather so I can’t say for sure what it’s like. But in general a softer spring is going to be better for those conditions.
Chris is dead on about the Koni’s, the general consensus is that they can handle a spring rate up to around 500-600.
Your alignment is what worries me now. I disagree with Chris about the camber (with the exception of the left rear). In my experience, as long as your toe settings are good, you don’t start wearing out your tires due to camber until you’re over negative 2 deg. In the -1 to -2 range you’ll see a tiny bit of wear on the inside but for me it’s never been anything that requires tire replacement prior to when you’d want to replace them regardless of that minor additional wear. And a little negative camber actually HELPS handling (although not in the snow). I’m confident that the excessive tire wear that occurred before you owned the car was due primarily to the toe, not the camber. I hate that they use degrees for toe because the more common way to look at it is inches. Without doing the conversion I have no idea how out of spec your settings are and whether or not they’d lead to excessive tire wear or not. There’s info online to do these conversions, I just don’t have the time at the moment. You should look it up though. You can also compare to the alignment specs from Honda which are located in the Suspension chapter of your Helms manual.
Seems to me that there are 1 and/or 2 things going on here that should worry you:
It’s VERY odd to me that they couldn’t get the toe dead on. That pretty much means that they ran out of adjustment. I see this being possible in the rear but not very possible in the front. This could potentially be an indicator that they don’t know what they’re doing - I’m thinking this is the less likely scenario however.
What I think is more likely the scenario is that there’s something wrong with the car’s suspension. The biggest red flag here is the huge difference in camber from left side to right side. Is the car level or is one side higher/lower than the other? If the two sides are level then the camber on each side should be a lot closer than what we’re seeing with your car. And we’re seeing something similar with the toe settings.
My first assumption is that perhaps your bushings need replacement (assuming the car is level from side to side). At least hopefully that’s the issue because if it’s not the issue then it’s likely that some suspension components are damaged. Not so bad that you’re WAY out of spec, but still something you should be aware of.
In regard to the sway bars… are both of them bright green like that? If so, then they are Suspension Techniques brand. The ST sway bars are the most mild setup available out there and a great starting point. Although if the car is a winter car then you may still want to consider switching back to stock.
yeah, that little camber probably wont be too adverse as far as tire wear, except* if you are doing winter driving and spinning tires, I’ve noticed that seems to accelerate tire wear with camber as you have a reduced contact patch, this also impacts traction.
Collin is probably onto something with suspension issues. your rear trailing arm bushings may be suspect… actually, I’ve never seen an integra where they aren’t completely destroyed if they haven’t been replaced. Any signs of a bad accident?
Or it could be something as simple as your coilovers being uneven.
That’s a good point Chris, I’ve never driven an Integra (or any car with negative camber) in the snow so I can be of any help there. And my experience has been the same with the RTA bushings - if they haven’t been replaced then they need to be.
I knew the larger sidewalls would help, but the car went from me having to have both hands on the wheel to being able to drive with my knee. HUGE difference. Anyone wanna buy some OZ Ultraleggera 16s?
My alignment was done at Firestone, only because they have lifetime alignments for cheap, and they’re nationwide. They’re usually idiots though. I’ve had many arguments with them in the past about my request of a minor toe-in in the front for improved highway straight-line stability. But anyway, yes, they said they ran out of toe adjustment. Chris, maybe you’d like to take a quick look at my car? My email is my username here at yahoo. Email me your number. Or post it here if that doesn’t bother you.
Another piece of info: Apparently the previous owner jacked the car up in the middle on the sides instead of the jack points because it was quicker at the track. If you look closely at the pics of my car, you can see the damage. It’s enough that the driver door rubs a little. Ugh. When the car is on a 4-point lift, the door shuts fine, but when on the ground, it rubs.
[QUOTE=moixana;2331225]I knew the larger sidewalls would help, but the car went from me having to have both hands on the wheel to being able to drive with my knee. HUGE difference. Anyone wanna buy some OZ Ultraleggera 16s?
My alignment was done at Firestone, only because they have lifetime alignments for cheap, and they’re nationwide. They’re usually idiots though. I’ve had many arguments with them in the past about my request of a minor toe-in in the front for improved highway straight-line stability. But anyway, yes, they said they ran out of toe adjustment.[/QUOTE]
I would hope you have some damaged suspension pieces on your car, otherwise that alignment was not done by someone who is qualified to do it. Here is my alignment that was done recently and they were able to do it to my specifications.
[QUOTE=TurboG2teg311;2331227]I would hope you have some damaged suspension pieces on your car, otherwise that alignment was not done by someone who is qualified to do it. Here is my alignment that was done recently and they were able to do it to my specifications.
[/QUOTE]
^That scan is really hard to read… but your camber is opposite of what I’d expect you’d want in terms of performance. Is there a reason you’re running more negative camber in the rear than in the front? Maybe another topic for your other thread
I was in a hurry and rushed the scan. Simply put I thought I was going to get around 2.5 of front camber on the stock control arms. I instructed them to make the rear at 2.5 and the front fell short, I would like to see 3-3.5 up front. But we can bring this over to my thread if you would like to discuss further.
Chris: Instead of trading you springs, how do you feel about taking my 550s in exchange for you inspecting my suspension and installing a set of springs I purchase?
Didn’t see this till now,
Yeah that works, let me see what days will work as this month will be pretty busy. I’m sure we can figure something out. What springs rates are you thinking of getting?
