heres a convo between myself and colin (91integGS) i learned some stuff and we both never really came to a conclusion, we both still think we are right…any insight:
i have stuck very close to my original plan…i think the only thing i changed was getting neuspeed race springs instead of GC
DA91IntegGS: how come?
brocious10: save some money…and springs will always ride better than a coilover, unless its a full-coilover
DA91IntegGS: i wouldn’t say always
DA91IntegGS: depends on the spring rates and depends on the quality. GC’s are pretty damn soft.
DA91IntegGS: i wouldn’t be surprised if they were as soft as the neuspeeds
brocious10: well i was going to specify my spring rates on them
brocious10: the neuspeeds are far from soft
brocious10: 500 f/450 r
DA91IntegGS: what!?
brocious10: yeah
brocious10: neuspeed race
brocious10: thats why i got them
DA91IntegGS: are you 100% sure. thats stiffer than skunk2’s. and skunk2’s are the stiffest i’ve ever seen
brocious10: yeah im almost positive
DA91IntegGS: so you wanted stiff? i thought you got springs cause they’d ride better than coilovers??? doesn’t make sense. and i’d check those spring rates again.
brocious10: nooo not ride smoother…
DA91IntegGS: i guess i’m confused
brocious10: coilovers can ride kind of choppy, i mean they arent really fixed to the shock body
brocious10: its just a sleeve
DA91IntegGS: that has nothing to do with it, trust me
DA91IntegGS: the sleeve stays put
brocious10: they can jump
DA91IntegGS: who is telling you this??? and have you ever used them for yourself?
brocious10: but i will probably go with them eventually once i figure out what spring rates i want
brocious10: a lot of people i know have coilovers
DA91IntegGS: jump? haha, jump my ass
brocious10: one of them has GC
brocious10: hahahaa
DA91IntegGS: who is it?
DA91IntegGS: anyone reputable?
DA91IntegGS: the springs and the collars will stay put.
brocious10: hahahaa its my friend from home
brocious10: im sure it doesnt happen often…
brocious10: but since GC are the only ones i know of that you can specify spring rates, thatll prolly be what i upgrade to
DA91IntegGS: there are always rumors about “the springs are so short that they can move around when on your car” yeah, thats true they are short…but you have to completely unload the suspension for that to happen, and still, even if you did do that chances are they aren’t gonna come out of place
brocious10: oh i know that happens…my springs have jumped the perch a couple times already…
brocious10: thats only 2"
DA91IntegGS: the neuspeeds are gonna be shorter than stock too, so theoretically if you unload the suspension the same thing could happen
DA91IntegGS: what springs are you using? and how did you secure the perch?
brocious10: im using the neuspeeds…haha…and they are koni yellows
DA91IntegGS: how the hell did they jump the perch!!??? my coilovers have never done that, no matte how hard i push them or what i drive over
brocious10: i just pops out for a second and then pops back in
brocious10: PA back roads are harsh
DA91IntegGS: how do you know it pops out?
brocious10: ive bottomed the whole car out too with them set at full firm
brocious10: you can hear it and feel it
DA91IntegGS: you may be hearing or feeling something else. you shouldn’t be able to hear that, it shouldn’t make any noise.
brocious10: so i could only imagine what a coilover would do if it was set any lower than 2"
DA91IntegGS: and you shouldn’t really be able to feel it either. the suspension has to be unloaded, which means your wheel isn’t on the ground, which means you’re not feeling anything.
brocious10: well if one wheel isnt on the ground
brocious10: thats why i want a full-coilover
brocious10: its one piece
brocious10: b/c the spring is either going to come off the perch or come out of the hat
DA91IntegGS: one piece has nothing to do with it. its the fact that the shock body is threaded and thus lets the spring come down further and be longer… more suspension trave;
DA91IntegGS: even if its one piece it depends on the characteristics of the spring, if it were short like sleeve coilovers it too could pop right out.
brocious10: arent the tops of the spring attached to the top hat of a full coilover??
DA91IntegGS: attached…just like any other system. there is a top hat and the spring sits in it.
DA91IntegGS: there is a bottom perch, and the spring sits in it. its not actually secured to it by anything more than spring tension
brocious10: hmmm i was under the impression is was attached…maybe im wrong
brocious10: man tein spring rates suck
DA91IntegGS: there is no need for it to be attached
DA91IntegGS: what are they?
brocious10: 500 f/ 280 r
DA91IntegGS: thats sorta odd
brocious10: http://www.tein.com/acura.html
DA91IntegGS: check this pic out:http://www.rd-tanabe.com/english/sus/S_S/images/S_S_04.jpg
brocious10: see it looks like the top is attached
DA91IntegGS: see the smaller upper spring. thats a helper spring and its spring tension holds the larger spring in place even if the suspension is unloaded. however when the suspension is loaded that small helper spring is completely flat and does not add to the suspension
brocious10: but not the botom
brocious10: see that would help
DA91IntegGS: some coilover systems (sleeve type) come with a helper spring. IMO its worthless and just makes it so you can’t go as low
DA91IntegGS: on a real coilover setup it may be helpful
brocious10: yeah
DA91IntegGS: thats odd that the tein rates are so soft in the rear
brocious10: see i think it would be very beneficial to performance if no matter what the load is, it still remains together
DA91IntegGS: beneficial in the sense that there is less of a chance of the spring getting out of place and when the suspension is loaded again being in the wrong place. but the chances of that are so minimal.
DA91IntegGS: the helper spring doesn’t have a spring rate high enough for it to actually be of any use to the suspension other than keeping it in place in an emergency
brocious10: yeah…but there is that much less time and energy lost if its always together
brocious10: if you are dog pissing your wheel isnt on the ground at all and your suspension has no load on that corner
DA91IntegGS: i’m not seeing how time and energy are lost. in both cases the real spring oes from being loaded, to completely unloaded to loaded again.
brocious10: less suspension travel with the helper…so it transfers the energy back to the spring faster
DA91IntegGS: nope, it travels just as far
DA91IntegGS: it just stays perfectly centered
DA91IntegGS: the shock still gets just as elongated in either situation
brocious10: yes…but its dead air in between the spring and perch or hat
DA91IntegGS: the helper spring cannot put any pressure on the big spring enough to actualy compress it
brocious10: unless there is something between there…such as a helper
brocious10: no, but the energy is still getting transferred
brocious10: its relaying it
DA91IntegGS: but what would any energy in the helper spring have to do?
DA91IntegGS: the spring rate on the helper spring is negligable
brocious10: if the spring rate were 0 in the helper spring it would be negligible
brocious10: but it is a spring…so it has a rate
DA91IntegGS: it doesn’t have to be 0 to be negligable. it just has to be very small in relation to the rest of the suspension…which it is
DA91IntegGS: but since its not actually compressing the large spring, it doesn’t really change anything
DA91IntegGS: the helper spring becomes completely squished before the big spring even starts to take a load
brocious10: say your wheel is in the air…your spring is no longer loaded to either the top hat or the perch (doesnt matter which)…now you can leave the space there and on the way down to the ground you have about 1 inch of extra travel before the spring actually gets reseated…put in a helper spring, and that 1" is eliminated and the load will already be started to transfered 1" earlier
DA91IntegGS: well, thats enough bickering for me, lol. i should get back to work. i gotta paint some stuff, do the tranny work and finish assembling my motor.
brocious10: hahaha ok
DA91IntegGS: wrong
brocious10: b/c as soon as the tire touches the ground it starts to transfer the weight back on the spring
DA91IntegGS: the load isn’t transferred until the helper spring is completely collapsed.
DA91IntegGS: it tries, but the helper spring absorbs all the load… the big spring doesn’t receive the load yet
brocious10: the load is transferred 1 inch earlier regardless
brocious10: the spring is not even on the perch when the tire first touches the ground…its prolly another 2 inches before the load is actually on the spring…so 1 inch makes a difference in my eyes
DA91IntegGS: transfered yes, but not to the big spring. well, you can count the thickness of the helper spring when its collapsed though…but that is essentially just a spacer at that point. oh well. its not like it actually really matters in our real worlds anyway, lol
