My dad, my uncle, and I will be rebuilding a B18A1 out of a 91 GS this summer. I’ve been doing some research to try to find answers and get an idea of where I want to go with the teg (I’m really looking forward to that engine rebuild guide, G2guru!). I’ve thought about a swap, but we got the teg as a project to rebuild the engine so that I could learn about cars, get some experience, and have fun. As it stands now, I’ve got about 2000-2500 bucks to spend on this project. It’s already got DC headers, AEM CAI, and greddy catback exhaust, so I can concentrate mostly on internals. This car will be an all-motor, daily driven, torque-happy street car (unless I can find a place to legally race close to where I live, VA peeps?). The engine is already out of the car and partly disassembled. Of course, we are going to replace all the gaskets, seals, bearings and stuff that go along with a rebuild. As far as other things, I already have ideas of what I want to do, but I know I’d be a lot better off with opinions and advice from you guys. I’ve divided everything into subjects to organize this gargantuan post.
Pistons – These are a big factor in engine performance, so I want to make sure I do it right. Obviously with an NA setup, I need higher compression but still need to run on 92 octane at the most. I’m pretty sure I don’t want to go over 11:1. Since the engine’s out, I might as well get it bored over as well. The JDM ITR pistons seem like a good choice, but what about P30s which give almost exactly the same CR, plus I don’t have to get the rods machined for them to fit. The problem is that I can’t find any oversize P30s. Do they exist?
Rods – Shot-peened stock rods
Crank – Does mic’d and micropolished sound good?
Block – The block will go to a machine shop to be dipped/bored/honed/decked/anything else you guys suggest. I will probably get the whole thing dynamically balanced with everything on it as well.
Cams – I know the Crower 403s are popular, but will they be good for my application? I don’t want to get cams that move the powerband way up in the RPM range since I won’t be able to see their full potential in normal driving. With some cam sprockets, could the 403s work out to be the right cams for me?
Valvetrain – I want to get new valves, springs, and retainers, but which ones? Should I just use the ITR stuff (will it even work)? Your recommendations are needed as far as what kind of components I should use. I’m not planning on getting the ecu chipped (unless you guys can convince me to) so the redline will stay stock. In normal driving I can’t imagine revving any higher than that anyway. Should I get new valve guides? It’s going to the machine shop to get either a 3 or 5 angle valve job (which one?)
Headwork – I don’t have the money to send it to portflow or anything, but I’ve been thinking about doing a little DIY p&p. I’ll have lots of time to do it, so I’m confident I could do a good job. I found a couple websites about DIY headwork as well. I won’t be enlarging anything too much anyway, since a larger port reduces low-end efficiency which is where I’ll be spending most of time on the road. Does this seem correct, techies? So I’ll probably only be cleaning up the rough surfaces and combustion chamber and doing some port-matching.
Ignition – An aftermarket ignition system doesn’t seem worth it to me, so just new plugs and wires, but OEM or aftermarket?
Fuel System – I’m thinking about getting some larger injectors from RC or something. Can anyone clue me in on what size would be ideal for this setup(if I need them at all) and if I need the saturated or peak-and-hold type? I will definitely be getting a FPR as well. The stock fuel rail and fuel pump should work fine, correct? How do I tune the fuel system after everything is done?
IM & TB – Skunk2 would be awesome, but it’s expensive and I’m afraid of moving too much power to the upper RPMs where I won’t see it. I saw a post about someone port-matching their TB to their IM, so I’ll probably do that along with cleaning up the intake runners and port-matching them to the head. By the way, do the old vacuum lines need to be replaced? Some blue silicone vacuum hose would look hot, but is it only for looks?
Clutch/Tranny/Flywheel – I think the guy we got the car from just put a new clutch on it, so that should last a while. Wish I could get my hands on a VTEC tranny, but the stock one isn’t having any problems so that’s what I’ll stick with I think. What about a lighter flywheel? If so, how much lighter?
Suspension – This isn’t part of the engine of course, but I have some questions so I figured I might as well ask them. The car’s lowered on Eibach pros & KYB GR-2s. Do I need a camber kit? I know I can do the washer thing on the back, but with a front drop of I think 1” which kit should I get? Ingalls makes two, one that goes from like 1.25-3 and then one that goes from like 0-1.25. I’m not sure if that’s it exactly, but which of the two kits would I need? Also, how can I check all the joints and bearings on the front suspension? The tie rod end grease boots are torn and some of the other ones aren’t in such good condition either. Can I just get new boots(from the dealer?) or do I have to replace the whole thing?
That’s all! (for now, hahaha) Anyway, you can see I’ve done some thinking and some research before posting, so please don’t leave me hangin! By the way, I’ll definitely post some pics along the way, if you guys are interested that is (and if I can figure out the whole image hosting thing!) Thanks!
unfortunately $2000-$2500 won’t actually get you all that far, but it depends on where you throw the money.
you can expect to spend about $500 just for block work (bore/hone/deck/clean/balance). Then another $400-$650 for new bearings, thrust washers, gaskets, seals, and a timing belt.
the jdm itr’s or p30’s would be a good way to go. I’m putting the oversized p30’s in my b17a (there are a handful of places that can get them for you: www.jdmhondaparts.com www.hondamotorsonline.com www.inline4.com and there are probably people here on the board that could hook you up as well). I’m probably going to be ordering my p30’s from jdmhondaparts, the price is $330 for pistons/rings/wrist pins (does not include shipping or tax).
definitely shot peen the rods. also get some arp rod bolts. Shot peening should be about $100, and another $50 for the rod bolts.
the crower 403’s are probably your best bet. they do raise the power band. but all good aggressive cams do. thats just where all the power is at on honda engines. So you will definitely want to build a strong motor so you can rev up to 8k safely to take full advantage of the cams. if you get the crower cams it’d probably be best just to get the crower valvetrain as well. new valves aren’t really needed, and you probably won’t have money for them anyway. I don’t remember the exact prices, but i believe for the cams/springs/retainers you can expect to pay $650-$800.
you probably don’t need any larger injectors. It wouldn’t be a bad idea to upgrade a little. but first off your money would probably be better spent on a fuel pressure regulator. then later on see if you really need larger injectors or not. Typically you don’t need them till you’re running pretty high hp (like 170-190+whp? someone correct me if i’m wrong). sending your stock injectors to RC to have them cleaned and blueprinted. That runs about $100
you don’t need to replace the vacuum lines unless they are cracked… unless of course you want to for looks. but the colored ones really aren’t any benefit over stock.
a vtec tranny would be a very good idea. lightening the flywheel is a good idea too. You can spend about $130-$175 to have the stock one lightened… you should probably go no lighter than 12-13lbs. Or you can opt for an aftermarket one. Cheapest i have seen is the clutchmasters aluminum one, very light and pretty inexpensive at a little under $300.
With a 1" drop you shouldn’t need a camber kit, just an alignment. But i wouldn’t be surprised if in the future you got tired of the 1" drop and opted to go lower.
My suggestion to you if you only have $2000-$2500 would be to concentrate on the bottom end mods, and things that aren’t so easily bolted on with the engine in the car. So, maybe even hold off on the cams till you can save up later. Just don’t skimp on the bottom end stuff because once the engine is in, if you decide to add more to the bottom end it won’t be as easy.
I know i didn’t answer all of your questions, but hopefully thats of some help to you.
I agree with 91integGS, except for the flywheel thing. This seems like a very good build up plan, because it’s almost exactly what I’m planning on doing, except I’m thinking about 404’s.
As for the clutch/flywheel thing, I’d recommend a spoon or Jun flywheel. they’re actually not all that expensive, they’re not TOO light, and you know they’re SFI approved. I’ve heard that lightening the stock flywheel can be unsafe. As for the clutch, I’d say spoon, Toda, or Exedy (they’re all the same).
other things to think about:
Cam gears
GS-R oil pump
Fuel/ignition controllers or new ECU or EMS
I wanna see how this turns out, keep us posted.
Originally posted by DOHCtor
[B]I agree with 91integGS, except for the flywheel thing. This seems like a very good build up plan, because it’s almost exactly what I’m planning on doing, except I’m thinking about 404’s.
As for the clutch/flywheel thing, I’d recommend a spoon or Jun flywheel. they’re actually not all that expensive, they’re not TOO light, and you know they’re SFI approved. I’ve heard that lightening the stock flywheel can be unsafe. As for the clutch, I’d say spoon, Toda, or Exedy (they’re all the same).
other things to think about:
Cam gears
GS-R oil pump
Fuel/ignition controllers or new ECU or EMS
I wanna see how this turns out, keep us posted. [/B]
lightening the flywheel down to 13lbs will be perfectly safe. Dan is currently running a 13lb lightened stock flywheel, and has 200whp! I’m pretty sure he ran that flywheel with his old b18a too, so he’s had it for quite awhile without any problems. I would too recommend a toda flywheel, but considering he’s only got $2000-$2500 i think it’d be in his best interests to save a couple hundred by lightening the stock one.
are you sure the spoon, toda and exedy flywheels are all the same? i know exedy makes the toda flywheel, but they may be made of different materials or made to different specs. so thats worth looking into.
Originally posted by 91IntegGS
[B]
are you sure the spoon, toda and exedy flywheels are all the same? i know exedy makes the toda flywheel, but they may be made of different materials or made to different specs. so thats worth looking into. [/B]
good point.
Thanks for the replies so far guys, especially 91integGS. As far as pistons I meant to say that the pr3s are the ones that have almost exactly the same CR as the JDM p73s. These are the USDM b16 pistons, I believe. Is 11:1 w/ p30s too high? With the JDM type-r pistons it is 10.8:1, same with the pr3s. I can’t find anywhere that has oversize pr3s though, so if I want to go with 10.8:1 then I’ll go for JDM ITRs, but if you guys think it’s safe to go with 11:1 then I’ll go with the p30s. Suggestions on ideal CR? As for the flywheel, lightening the stock one to about 13 lbs. seems like it would be the most cost-effective thing to do for my situation. Can any machine shop do this?
Originally posted by n2tegs2
Thanks for the replies so far guys, especially 91integGS. As far as pistons I meant to say that the pr3s are the ones that have almost exactly the same CR as the JDM p73s. These are the USDM b16 pistons, I believe. Is 11:1 w/ p30s too high? With the JDM type-r pistons it is 10.8:1, same with the pr3s. I can’t find anywhere that has oversize pr3s though, so if I want to go with 10.8:1 then I’ll go for JDM ITRs, but if you guys think it’s safe to go with 11:1 then I’ll go with the p30s. Suggestions on ideal CR? As for the flywheel, lightening the stock one to about 13 lbs. seems like it would be the most cost-effective thing to do for my situation. Can any machine shop do this?
pr3’s will yeild 10.817:1
p30’s will yeild 11.015:1
by the way, pr3’s are not just usdm pistons. They came in the usdm b16a’s as well as the 89-91 jdm b16a’s. 11:1 will be fine with 92 octane. I’ll be running 11:1 in my b17a and i can only get 91 octane here in cali:( There is another cali member who is running ctr pistons in his b17a (~11.3:1) and said he hasn’t had any trouble. Personally i wouldn’t go any lower than 11:1 if i was in your situation.
you can get oversized pr3’s here: http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/ just look up the pistons for the 99-01 civic si, and order the oversized pistons/rings. Or you can pick up some p30’s from jdmhondaparts (i just emailed them and they said they had them in stock).
Not all machine shops lighten flywheels, although all probably balance and resurface them. you’ll just have to call around in your area and see what is offered. also, an alternative would be to order an integra type r flywheel, or find a used one. it weighs 14lbs.
you’re my hero 91integGS. I’m really leaning towards the oversize p30s, but my dad is really paranoid cuz he was convinced by some other people that anything over 10.5:1 would cause detonation. He’s been talking to people that work with old domestics, so I don’t think what they told him applies to Hondas. The Honda combustion chambers and pistons are designed way better, correct? I told him that there are people running these pistons in a b17a, but he needs to be convinced that a b18a1 won’t blow up with these pistons in it. Please help!
well, i’m not sure how to convince your dad. A guy here in cali (elmer) is running the p30’s in his b17a right now. thats 11:1 on 91 octane. He said he’s getting a very small amount of pinging, but that could be easily remedied with some fuel tuning (fpr? v-afc? cleaned injectors?). Ive talked to a couple other guys who said they’ve had no problems what so ever.
dan (g2guru) ran the jdm itr pistons in his b18a. I’m not sure what octane gas he has up there in oregon, i’d guess 92 or 93. he’s now running a built b18c with jdm itr’s (thus 11.1:1) and no detonation. Dan’s definitely the guy to talk to if you really want to be sure. He knows more than probably anyone else here.
If you find 11.1:1 to be safe, maybe you could just fudge the calculations a little when you tell your pops? And yes, our engines are better built than older (and even most newer) domestics. Take for example the older 5.0 mustangs. They only had 220hp!! Thats only 44hp/liter, even our stock b18a has 77hp/liter, and some honda engines (i.e. b16a, itr, ctr) have 100+hp/liter. Go HONDA! That probably doesn’t relate to detonation… but i just like to brag about how wonderful honda is:D
Oil pump?
Alright, the block is all apart, going to the machine shop sometime in the near future. For my application, should I replace the oil pump? It has 160,000+ miles on it, so I’m guessing I should probably replace it. If I’m going to be getting a new one, I might as well get a gs-r one or a type r one right? Well, on www.acurautomotiveparts.net, the 2001 type r pump, the '93 gs-r pump, and the '91 gs pump all have the same product number! (9043). What’s the deal? Also, does an oil pump from a b16 work? (on hondaautomotiveparts.com the oil pump for a 2000 si was like 40 bucks less than the integra ones). I have searched, but there seems to be mixed answers concerning this issue. Anyway, your help and comments are appreciated.