I was reading through some old posts about automatic transmission performance and there was a lot of good information posted… but it only created more questions for me.
Being a fellow Automatic Integra Owner ( AIO’s RULE! ) and also heavily bonded with it, I’d like to know and create a list of what we can do to help eliminate the power lost through the transmission system.
Converting to a 5-manual or Buying an already Manual teg is not an option. I don’t want to see any replies about that, I’ve heard enough flames about that. This post is for people who’d rather keep and build their automatics.
I did some web searching and found some sites that offer automatic transmission upgrades:
A Torque Converter (TCs) upgrade is evident, but I’d also like to know if adding an Limited Slip Differential (LSD) to our automatics will help transfer the power better to the ground. I’ve been to those sites and they don’t put the two products together (TCs and LSDs) so if someone can clear that up it’ll be great.
Thats an interesting question on the LSD, Id be interested to know that too.
After reading all that stuff from all the posts, I didnt see where anyone actually had the high stall torque converter installed with comments. Hs anyone accomplished this yet?
The Level Ten site link wouldnt work for me but the other one did. I was wondering what the computerchip for the tranny would do? Would this just make it shift at a certin rpm or what??
this is actually nice!! i would like to rather fix up my auto and not do a swap. i emailed the guys at pro tech seeing if they could send me any information about what they have to offer. i hope i can find out some stuff to do to my automatic tranny and teach those people with the five speeds that we can roll with them to!
The company next door to mine rebuilds Honda/Acura Automatic Transmissions. From talking to them, the AT’s are well built and fail from abuse or lack of maintenance.
The B16’s AT would be a better choice for buildup as they can be had for about $200-300 and usually include the transmission ECU with the different shift programming. I beleive that the S4 button no longer works with this transmission. As we know, this tranny is geared lower and has the LSD.
As for why we haven’t seen a tranny with an upgraded TC and LSD, it’s most likely due to cost. I believe the Level10 transmission kits are in the $1000’s of Dollars.
I wanted a lighter driveplate (similar to the benefits of a lighter flywheel), stronger and lighter TC, and LSD but it cost more than a ATM swap would be.
Here’s another member’s findings. Not really supportive of the Automatic build, but at least he has backup.
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Hey, ya, I ended up scrapping the idea. After a fair amount of research, I
found too many little problems with our trannies and with companies
supporting them to make it worthwhile. I found that all the companies I
talked to were only modifying the stock converter to give it a higher stall
speed, which typically decreases the efficiency of the TC and causes higher
tranny temps as a result which also increases internal wear. Plus, the
increase in stall speed could only be a bit higher than stock since they
were just modifying our stock TC’s, which still left the stall speed at a
less than optimal point in the rpm range, at least for quick acceleration.
Then after talking to level ten a bit more, they can’t make a manual shift
kit for our auto trannies primarily due to the lack of line pressure for
shifting at certain rpms (I don’t completely understand the issue with it,
it looks to me like there might be enough, but I’m just taking their word on
it that it wouldn’t work). Then I also found that the autos in hondas
typically sap close to 30% of the power away from the engine, as opposed to
the usual 15% honda manuals do, and I decided that I couldn’t cheaply or
easily make up the difference, so I decided to do a manual swap. I do like
having an automatic for it’s convienience, but I think a manual will work
out better for me in the long run. Also, if you do want to have the torque
converter modified, shop around a bit, level ten isn’t the only place to do
it I found, but they were the most expensive. I found a few places that
wanted less than the $500 level ten wants, like www.protorque.com said
they’d do the mod for $400. I’m pretty sure I found a couple sites even
cheaper, but I can’t seem to find them right now. Level ten was the only
place with a performance rebuild kit (PTS kit) for our trannies though.
The other thing that helped convince me to do the swap was that a friend of
mine bought a manual 1990 LS, and let me drive it a few times, and it feels
much less “bogged” and a lot faster and much more rev happy stock than my
i/h/e auto. After driving it, it made my mind up. So currently I’m in the
middle of gathering everything for a manual swap (I have everything except a
fully working tranny, but I think I’m buying Armaan’s when he gets it off
his car). I’m going to take a ton of pics while I do the swap to, so
combined with Shenrie’s writeup, hopefully there will be a decent teg tip on
doing the conversion.
I’d love to see someone build a sweet auto setup. In my case, I just decided that for the money I have and what I want to accomplish with this car, building the auto wouldn’t be a very good move for me. My only real complaint about my auto is where it shifts. Looking at the wiring diagrams, it looks as though you could possibly control shift points by just by tapping into the shifter solenoid wiring. Level ten seemed to think it wasn’t possible to control shifts on our trannies for some reason or something (like I said earlier), but I dunno, it’d be interesting to try.
Ok, I just reread one of the replies I got from level ten about the shiftronic kit, and they said it had something to do with the fact that our trannies use a governor rather than a vss and solenoids. Where they got this info or what they mean by it, I’m not sure, seeing as how ours most certainly use solenoids to control clutch engagement as well as TC lockup, but they may have been referring to using solenoids to control line pressure, which was one of the things I was asking them about. But they did basically say it wasn’t really possible to shift it manually. They did claim that their TC upgrade would make the car faster than a manual, although I have a very hard time believing this since the upped stall speed still isn’t exactly in a great spot, and it’s raised by so little I don’t see how it would allow the car to overcome the loss of speed from the tranny computer shifting at low rpms. Level ten did insist that they measure stall speed differently than factories do, but I have a hard time believing that as well, stall speed is stall speed, not to mention the fact that they are only modifying the stock TC, which, coincidentally, through modification can only be upped the amount they claim is optimal. Also, other companies I talked to didn’t say the stall speed was measured differently, and said they could raise it the same amount as level ten, and that was all they could do with the stock unit. I also never found anyone who makes a full aftermarket TC for our cars, only modified stock TCs.
All in all, I don’t 100% trust level ten’s claims on some of their stuff (like the upgraded TC making the car faster than a manual, seeing as you still have the extra drive train loss to overcome as well), but the upped stall speed might help some, and the PTS kit ought to help a bit with cleaner shifts. I’d definitely like to hear about some modified autos out there. Sorry for the long post, just thought I’d throw a bit more of what I found out here, and some of the ideas I had.
Originally posted by atch417 I have a b16 with my ls auto transmission and it sucks, i’m just doing what Neil told anyone not to mention, the m-s
-Andy
I was thinking of the other way around, B20 or B18 with the B16’s AT.
i too have been looking into this matter. and i also got a reply back from levelten saying that with their upgraded TQ, the car will be faster than a mnaual. just because they said that i did not do it. otherwise there was a good chance that i would. however the prices you guys are saying is not what the quote i got. if i remember correctly… upgrading your stock TQ cost about 300 bucks .
I agree with what you said about the cost of the TC mod, I seem to recall getting quoted for like $300 or so, maybe even $250 somewhere. But the only quotes I could find that I wrote down were from level ten and protorque, for $500 and $400 respectively. It’s not like there’s much to it, they just chop the TC in half, bend the fins by hand (one of the reasons that they never give an exact rpm increase for stall speed), and then reweld the TC back together.
Thank you for inquiring into our company. Yes, we do torque converters for many import applications. We just finished building a torque converter for a twin turbo 300ZX that is running in the 10’s. This car has been featured in TURBO Magazine. As well as many turbo Supra’s that are also in the 10’s. As well as a few well known Hondas from tuners like Performance Auto Factory and The Race Shop.
The torque converter that I recommend for this application is our PTC - HO15SS. This torque converter is the perfect mix of performance and streetability and is recommended for a street/strip application. The stall speed on this torque converter is approx. 300-800 above stock. Our price on this torque converter is $395.00 +shipping. The reason we recommend this piece is because of it’s good drivability, and durability.
Unfortunately, we do these on an exchange basis. The turnaround time for this torque converter is usually 1-2 days.
In performance applications we also recommend a cooler due to the fact that performance torque converters tend to create more heat. We carry a full line of coolers. Please feel free to call or e-mail me if you have any further questions. We have these things in stock and are prepared to ship on your advise. Once again thanks
Thank you
Joe Rivera
PROTORQUE
1440 Church St.
Bohemia, NY
631.218.8700
LODOSS I don’t understand: In the reply before your last one you said you didn’t want to do it because levelten said it would be faster than a manual. Isn’t that good reason to get the torque converter then?
well the reason i said i don’t want to do it is because… as almost every knows… there is prob no chance any auto’s can out drag a manual otherwise all the race cars will just have auto tranny… that is my point… the point of showing how they are saying things that does not sound to be true at all.
stall refers to how much RPM will the motor have to rev before the power is being fully transferred to the axle.
Ie: if I have a Vigilante torque convertor with a 3000 stall installed in my Camaro, my camaro won’t move much until I rev it pass 3000 RPM… By the way, it is a very effective modification on the F-body. The convertor alone is worth 1/2 a sec or more in your quarter mile time.
Stall speed is the point at which the turbine and the rotor in the torque converter spin at the same speed, and essentially locking the two together, causing a 1:1 transfer from the crankshaft to the transmission. For best acceleration you usually want the stall speed to be the same as the rpm where the engine generates the max torque, which in our cases is usually around 5500rpm as I recall. The problem is that it wouldn’t be all that streetable at that high an rpm (I can’t remember exactly why, I think it was either that it would cause the accelerlation to be sluggish below 5500rpm, and 5500rpm is pretty high to be daily driving at, not to mention the computer would shift much sooner than that, or that it would cause too much stress on the drivetrain due to heat, etc since it would typically not lock up in daily driving (our TCs have lockup clutches in them, FYI).) The stock stall speed on our converters seems to be at a small torque peak, at least according to the few dyno plots I’ve seen of stock/near stock engines, so it makes sense for honda to put it there. It was exactly that reason that made me question upping the stall speed the small amount most companies suggested, since the new stall speed appeared to be at a point of either the same torque or even lower torque in some of the dyno plots I saw (I can’t say the dyno plots were too conclusive though, as each engine varies, and I’ve only seen a couple that were stock/near stock) I think I’m generally right on this, if someone sees an error, definitely correct it, since I’m not 100% positive on a lot of this.
) and also heavily bonded with it, I’d like to know and create a list of what we can do to help eliminate the power lost through the transmission system.