belt jumped again?? It no longer is lined up with the white line on the crank pully

ASSISTANCE Stock Engine-Bay Components
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Ok I will start from the beginning.

About 2 weeks ago I pressure washed the block. Nothing out of the ordinary, covered all electrics and even stayed away from them. The main reson was i had blown a coolant hose a few days prior and wanted to get that all off as well as get old oil from an old leak off.

When we tried to start the car…it just cranked. this is after drying everything off with 120psi of air…i mean not a drop of water was left.

I kept getting this smell and this weird backfire outta the intake manifold. After waiting the car started right up and ran fine. As as the days went by the car got harder and harder to start, it would just crank…did my research and it turned out that the timing belt was loose. It only had about 7k miles on it, but I guess when I took the car to 2NR Werx (in Tampa)they never replaced teh tensioner.

We replaced the timing belt and tentioner and got the CAM timing dead nuts on, and the car started right up! The ignition timing MUST be completey advanced for it to run (ODD) and it feels like it has lost some power and “boggs” under a load (high rpm is fine) and wants to shut off from any abrupt start. I have to ease into a start and accelerate easy. Other than that the car runs fine, idles normal, no coolant loss, no missing anything

Compression is @ 178 on each cylinder, Spec requires 200 on a brand new motor and it has like 191,8XX on a B18A1 all stock internals with bolt ons. I guess that means that the headgasket and valves are ok…NO SMOKE EVER!!!

Fuel pressure is a steady 139psi, Spark is PHENOMENAL all the way from the box to the end of the plug (full MSD setup)…6AL box, Blaster SS coil, Power Cap and rotor, wires are good and NGK iridium plugs gapped @ .45. Even got new reg plugs and didnt help

Cleaned out the breather box and replaced all corroted hoses and PCV valve and there are no vacuum leaks AT ALL!!

HERE IS THE PROB NOW:

Yesterday, while on my way to my buddies house, it was “bogging” like crazy, and when I stopped at the store it took 4ever to start. I get it to my buddies house and checked it all out and noticed that the belt jumped again?? It no longer is lined up with the white line on the crank pully, its on the 1 of the 3 lines just before it. Cams are lined straight up when at TDC and the Distributor is line all good too.

I have had so many people try to help and work on it for hours and we dont know whats wrong…

I NEED HELP!!!

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anyone?

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There’s always the chance you got the timing wrong the first time and just didn’t realize it. OR you got it right on, but it wasn’t tight enough and as soon as you started it, it jumped a little and forced you to change the ignition timing. Did you check the mechanical timing again after starting the car?

If this most recent jump happened then there’s definitly an issue w/ the tensioner or your method of installing the belt, or hell, it might just be a fluke, you never really know. Read the Helms and follow the procedure EXACTLY. Rotate the engine multiple times and make sure the timing is on each time. Start it up, see how it runs. Stop the engine, and re-check the timing and belt tension.

You need to get your mechanical timing 100% right before you start tackling any other potential problems.

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I am 100% sure that the timing is off NOW. We checked it a few times after we changed the belt and it was on point. The only oddity was that the ignition timing HAD to be advanced in order for the car to run (with CAM timing perfect), and even though it felt like it wanted more.

I know its off right now…her are some pics…

Notice how much it is off…

im gonna go downstairs and pull it all off and start from scratch with the belt, I know that much…maybe something with the way my buddy did the belt?? the big ? is; Why the need for the timing to be advanced once the mechanical timing is on? Doesnt make sense!:think:

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steve i had the same problem i just had to re do my t belt.i cant figure it out the first time i did everything was perfect and it jumped at start up.then i drove it from fl to ny and everything was good then one day it jumped again now i replace everything and did my ls/v and i havent got to start it yet.but this time im going to take it for a ride then come back and check t belt tension again.

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I’m not fully convinced that your mechanical timing was on. Cause you’re right, you shouldn’t need to mess w/ your ignition timing like that if the mechanical timing is correct.

In that picture neither your cams or crank are at TDC…

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why do u say that the gears are not at TDC? Im a little aggravated so I could be off so Im gonna go pull the VC off and check the alignment holes on the CAM…

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steve find tdc and see where the up sits on the cam gears.and check for slack on the belt right between the cams.lmk i can get a hold of the dealers manual tomorrow (hopefully) if you have any ?and diff. spin the crank and listen for valve and piston smack if its way out of time.

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The picture is at a strange angle… but it very much looks like they are not lined up. You should sort of ignore the arrows on the cam gears. These will not point STRAIGHT up. They will be parallel and they will point upwards, but not perpendicular to the ground. The engine sits angled a little forward, the arrows should point up and perpendicular to the valve cover.

Don’t use the arrows as your main reference. Use the little goove on the teeth of each cam gear. They should line up perfectly. In the picture you have posted both the intake and exhaust cams need to be rotated counter-clockwise just a tad, looks like maybe 1.5 teeth.

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Yeah I have a manual…and there is no slack. thats why im confused. It doesnt seem like it should have moved at all

[QUOTE=Colin;1899618]The picture is at a strange angle… but it very much looks like they are not lined up. You should sort of ignore the arrows on the cam gears. These will not point STRAIGHT up. They will be parallel and they will point upwards, but not perpendicular to the ground. The engine sits angled a little forward, the arrows should point up and perpendicular to the valve cover.

yaknow, I figured that when I took the pics. It didnt seem right…Ill move it just a bit and check it with the marks on the pully…
Don’t use the arrows as your main reference. Use the little goove on the teeth of each cam gear. They should line up perfectly. In the picture you have posted both the intake and exhaust cams need to be rotated counter-clockwise just a tad, looks like maybe 1.5 teeth.[/QUOTE]

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Basically, What Colin said…

Notice the lines at the “Three oclock” and "Nine oclock positions on the timing gears. When the cams are at TDC, the lines should line up with each other.

I think your issue is that you lined the “UP” arrows on the gear to point UP in reference to the ground, but not the engine. If you squat down on the drivers side and look at the cam gears, you will notice the engine doesn’t sit perfectly level, so “straight up” from the ground is NOT the same as “straight up” on the engine.

you need to turn the cam gears a little bit counterclockwise so that the lines on the side line up with each other, AND with the top edge of the head (where the head meets with the valve cover.

Easiest method is to lay a straight edge across the face of both Cam gears. Make sure the “UP” arrows are pointing up, and the four little lines at three oclock and nine oclock on both cam gears all line up with the straight edge.

As far as the Crank, instead of using the timing marks on the crank pulley for the timing light, Look at the end of the crank shaft (with the crank pulley removed) where the timing belt attaches. There is a DOT and a LINE that line up when the crank is a TDC.

I also believe you were not lined up correctly when you swapped it the first time.

Feel free to call me when you have the car pulled apart and are staring at the gears if you need any help.

THREE OH FIVE FIVE FOUR TWO TEN FOURTEEN

David

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well now, im really baffled, cuz the timing is right on point. not even a millimeter off…

notice the screws drop right in…and when like this…the marking on the timing cover is DEAD ON to the line on the crank pully!

Now what??..If i cover the throttle body with mty hand it starts right up??? This means the timing has been right all along (since the new belt) and now we have another issue…

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Maybe a stupid question, but I have to ask… Which mark on the crank pulley are you using?

There are 4 marks. Three white and 1 red.

White Red White = 18 16 14 Degrees BTDC
These are the marks used when setting your IGNITION TIMING

White (all by itself) = TDC
Used when setting your MECHANICAL TIMING

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[QUOTE=Colin;1899645]Maybe a stupid question, but I have to ask… Which mark on the crank pulley are you using?

There are 4 marks. Three white and 1 red.

White Red White = 18 16 14 Degrees BTDC
These are the marks used when setting your IGNITION TIMING

White (all by itself) = TDC
Used when setting your MECHANICAL TIMING[/QUOTE]

Not a stupid question…

White (TDC) by itself and its dead on…not even a milimeter off

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OK, now we know your mechanical timing is on. After going back and forth and the various problems you encountered, I just want to double check what exactly is wrong with the car. Can you go ahead and list only the issues you’re having right now.

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ok here goes…

Right now it just cranks…but it will start it right up if I place my hand over the throttle body?? WTF?

And when it is started…it idles and runs normal until i “punch” the gas. It wants to bog, If I ease into the accelerator…Its fine. Feels like the timing is off.

Keep in mind it will only idle if the ignition timing is advanced.

thats where I am at this point…and this is where I have been for about 1 week!

I can make a vid clip if need be??

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OK, I’m pretty baffled by that now that it still does all of this and we know the timing is dead on.

  1. What gave you the idea to hold your hand over the throttle body?
  2. Can you confirm that the throttle plate is closing fully?
  3. Do you have a spare distributor you can try? Or a friend with one you can try?
  4. I assume you’re not throwing any codes?

I would take a look into your Helms manual and read through everything you can about the ignition system and the throttle body. Check to see how the TB lets air in when the throttle is closed - maybe there is a failure in this system.

Likewise, look into the distributor to see what might be messed up in there. Also, not sure if this would do anything or not… but set your dist back to approx 16deg BTDC. Then try to start the engine. I know it won’t start, but crank it for at least 15 seconds. See if you can get the ecu to throw a code by doing that.

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As for trying my hand over throttle body was because once, I would pull on the throttle cable or hit the throttle from inside the car it would seem to bog when the butterfly would open. That lead me me to believe that It was trying to pull air from somewhere else.

Sure enuf when I covered the T.B, the car fired right up.

I then checked for vacuum leaks. I replaced both lines coming from the breather box, the one coming out of the head was corroted. I replaced the O-Ring on the breather box and the PCV valve and the from the Intake Manifold down to the box. I went over all other vacuum lines and nothing. However I cant imagine any vacuum leak that would pull that much air to prevent the car from starting??

Everything else is okay as far as fuel and spark goes…

IM BAFFLED!

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maybe you are running really lean and when you cover the tb it even out the fuel curve.just a thought.right now i am stumped and tiring to remember if with advanced timing it burns fuel slower or faster.lol.

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Well good thing that u metioned that because the plugs are burning on the white side since this issue began. I have since pulled out my Iridiums (so they dont foul) and put in a set of stock NGK’s. They do seem to burn a little lean.

Isnt the ECU the only thing that controls the fuel curve? Or am I way off??