Originally Posted by Ricecake “What the fuck are you talking about?”
Hey fresh face, come back when you’ve got some grease under your finger nails. J. has more experience with these engines then you and all your midwest butt buddies combined.
Ignore the help and run off to the Dominican with your boyfriends!
Db2 - do you not know how to quote someone?
[QUOTE=DB2-R81;1994701]Originally Posted by Ricecake “What the fuck are you talking about?”
Hey fresh face, come back when you’ve got some grease under your finger nails. J. has more experience with these engines then you and all your midwest butt buddies combined.
Ignore the help and run off to the Dominican with your boyfriends![/QUOTE]
uh ricecake is a wyotech trained mechanic man, one of my best friends, and one of the only people i would trust my car with. nice try though. he is as far from a fresh face as can be newb.
build is looking good. was there and moding needed for that block girdle? Im currius cause ive been looking into it for my LSV build.
More herd mentality?
Nah, just a question.
This button will help you when it comes time to quote someone.
Use it.
all motor :ohyeah::ohyeah::ohyeah:
nothing other than using gsr main studs. that one is machined specifically for ls/b20 blocks.
[QUOTE=DB2-R81;1994701]Originally Posted by Ricecake “What the fuck are you talking about?”
Hey fresh face, come back when you’ve got some grease under your finger nails. J. has more experience with these engines then you and all your midwest butt buddies combined.
Ignore the help and run off to the Dominican with your boyfriends![/QUOTE]
ROFL.
Fresh face eh?
ROFL. Think what you want, but the fact remains that nobody on here will answer the questions that I posed with legitimate answer because it was a line of bullshit that started the pissing match to begin with.
I feel no need to try and justify my qualifications on the matter, because honestly, I doubt you care to hear truth in the first place.
Everybody on the internet is an expert, yet it is rare that they can come up with a clear, concise, well thought out reason why they are spewing bullshit in the first place.
Answer the questions I posed with something less than a convoluted answer, until then, continue with the baby batter diet.
EDIT: As far as J. goes, all I ask is for a reasonable explanation of your view. I really do mean no disrespect to you, but to point to piston squirters or a difference in how the block mates as a reason for an LS-V being failure prone is just plain preposterous, especially when you only give vague reasons with no real material evidence. Think like a scientist man.
Sorry, but the amount of half truths that circulate throughout this “community” irritate me to no end.
You’re only demonstrating your inexperience and ignorance more and more.
Same old story, grow some pubic hair then tell us something we have not heard before.
J.’s conversant enough to speak for himself, and akin, likely won’t waist his time attempting to educate the unreachable.
Ricecake, Iceman,
everyone knows I run LSvtec on this website, and I’ve had a great experience with it. Had mine for 4-5 years and it runs great, for a street/strip car that sees 9k rpm a few times a month but is not constantly beat on for laps and laps at a time in a road race situation.
For my application its fine… for J and R81; who I know are more interested in road racing than maybe not so much. reliability is apples and oranges when you talk about 30k miles that average 4k rpm, and 30k miles that average 8k rpm right?
Not directed towards you, but I think the biggest communication error I see on a LOT of sites is that “LS vtec is better/makes more power than a b18c…” :umno: Both of you should/would probably agree with me as well.
The added stroke, and shorter deck height are what ultimately give the b18a/b18b block its HP advantages. Not the block itself. I personally don’t think oil squirters add HP, but then I also don’t think a street car will ever see engine temps quite like that of a car running 15-20 laps from 7-9k rpm constantly.
I think the point J was making is that regardless of bore, stroke, or deck height, why would you chose a b18a,b18b block over a b18c if you were already over 2g’s deep into a build in the first place, and a b18c block costs $300-400 more than a b18a/b, a GE lsvtec kit and block girdle cost maybe $200ish themself right??
so, taking everything else that is variable out of the equation; (machine work, internals, engine geometry, etc)… do you think the b18a/b is every bit as good as a b18c? It’s an honest question, I’m not trying to lead anyone on here.
Regardless, I’m crossing my fingers for your LSV as well Iceman… I love it when they turn out well and I’m interested to see your numbers with the Pro1’s. I’m want to see how your motor does with the Pro1’s vs. my S2s2’s
Viper - this wasn’t about what makes more power, it’s about comments about reliability and superority of one over the other, as well as J’s comments about there being so many differences the c1 is superior. So Ok.
Let’s just settle this. I’m tired of misinformation.
Here it is straight from the man himself -
“We ONLY install squirters in applications where the engine is going to be run at full throttle for very prolonged periods, such as road racing on tracks with long straight sections.
We have LS/VTEC’s and B20VTEC’s without them that have been running since before the year 2000 and they have NO issues.
Most LSVTEC’s are doomed due to the engine assembly practices of their owners, ie. the use of aftermarket bearings, poor bearing clearance fitment, improper piston to wall clearance/ring end gap, paying no attention to piston to valve clearances, use of old (used oil pumps, etc, etc.)”
That’s from Larry at Endyn.
Now explain to me HOW it was determined that oil squirters were the cause of premature failure. If he has built them and they have lasted nearly 10 years I’d say your argument goes right out the window. I highly doubt 99% of the people on this site have as much knowledge as this guy. Where do you think I got the info in the first place. People who knwo me know how freaking paranoid I am, and in my research about oil squirters I flat out asked Larry what he thought as he’s probably built more honda engines than anyone here. That was his answer. Both Larry and Ricecake have been walking me through this LSV build since day one. Countless times I’ve asked questions from Ricecake, and in my paranoia, have asked Larry the same question, and low and behold I get the same answer. It’s to the point I’ve stopped bothering Larry for every little thing. If Rice has done enough research and application to be on the same page as a major honda engine builder that pretty much qualifies him in my book. I’m learing a lot more than I ever thought about engine building, and honda engine building in particular thanks to these two, especially Rice.
Viper - thanks for the support. I can’t wait until I’m done and can post some dyno charts and possibly some data logs. I’ve decided to add to the build by taking some birthday money from my family and get some new trans parts. So it’ll be delayed a little but I’m very excited. A friend of mine just got his engine built by Ricecake and it’s very similar to mine except he’s running the skunk2 stage 2s like you, pr3 pistons, and a gsr head. He made 186/130 something I think. I’ll clarify that. He’s exicted to see the Pro1s as well.
Hey Guys sorry for the delay and as soon as I get 10 minutes to address speicifically the comments and questions at hand I will get to them.
OK, just re-read all the comments, as soon as I get 20 minutes…
Thanks to Brian and Marc for at least speaking up for my experience.
J.
[QUOTE=DB2-R81;1995126]You’re only demonstrating your inexperience and ignorance more and more.
Same old story, grow some pubic hair then tell us something we have not heard before.
J.’s conversant enough to speak for himself, and akin, likely won’t waist his time attempting to educate the unreachable.[/QUOTE]
Tell us everything you know there daddy.
All I asked for was an explanation of the convoluted reasons given why an LS-V in not reliable.
I am surprised that nobody is trying to pull the “stock rods are crap” card as well.
Let me guess, you guys are going to say that the R/S ratio of an LS-V makes it unreliable as well.
Nobody here is saying that an LS block is superior. One could argue that the C1 has some advantages, but guess what fellas, they don’t exactly grow on trees. Impossible to find, no, but at least in our area, if you find one, you will be paying dearly.
I am also pretty sure that iceman does not plan to be parked at 9K for 30,00 plus miles. Does he plan to beat the hell out of it though, you bet.
Maybe instead of wishing one luck with a build because it is an LS-V, maybe you should wish them luck on the build period.
DB2-R81, get off your high horse and provide some info if you know so much more instead of trying to swing your e-dick around and dangling your old wrinkly balls in peoples’ faces. All you comments are doing is showing that you are a jackass.
Stock rods are crap.
AR
OK guys, here we go and sorry for the delay. I not only had to find time to respond to this thread but I also wanted to run to my Mom’s house because she has an old hard drive that had some saved emails on it from Tim Lyons, he was an outside consultant that did translation and spec writing for HOA (Honda of America), who I got to know through their Motocross testing program.
This email is from 1998 and doesn’t give any definitive answers but should show why I feel the way I do and where I got my opinion.
My original email asked basically about the differences between the parts numbers of a B18A block and a B18/(C) block:
Copy and Pasted from here on out:
From: Timothy Lyons[mailto:TLyons@XXXXXspc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 1998 2:02 PM
To: Haradon, Jason; jharadon@aol.com
Subject: Mis-matched Honda “B” series engines
Jason,
It’s impressive to think that in an age where the hot-rod is only reserved for those who respect American muscle that this much innovation is going on in the streets for the simple pursuit of more power.
In regards to your question, if you and your friends are finding uncommon failures when assembling these block and head combinations as you explained I can only assume that the matrix of the torque focused block not being designed to handle the intense vibrations of the higher spinning valve train could lead to some long term issues, but not any short term that I can see.
My assumptions are based on the original (Honda) specs which I have access to for POEM suppliers (Private Original Equipment Manufacturers) I had to find out what that stood for; .J., and the B18A03XA has composition which we are using more for heat dissipation and not for vibration and or performance engines. Hence, a motor designed for load and torque and less for horsepower or performance.
So, although and your friends are correct in assuming that the pieces do appear to be identical in their form, they are two entirely different material make ups which could lead to some problems in the future.
The composition of Honda’s performance parts versus their economy and duty based pieces are different. Although some pieces may look very similar in design, the material make-up, in this instance the composite make-up of the block, could be significantly different and something you and your friends should be aware of. I wouldn’t worry about the differing make-ups between blocks and heads, (that was a question I asked .J.), but more the long term affects of vibrations.
Rest assured that the specs which Honda holds its suppliers to are far more stringent and specific than any other manufacturer I’ve worked with. I’m lucky to work with such great product. Attached is an RFI (Request for Information) from Keihn about the block production of the US market B18A03XA which has been translated; I can’t find the RFI for the life of me .J.
Attached RFI#641, (To: Keihn(POEM) from Production) for your record -
Warning: This electronic mail message is furnished without guarantee of compatibility with recipient’s hardware or software and may contain undetected viruses or other harmful material. It is recommended that this message and any attachments be checked prior to use.
TLyons@XXXXXspc.com
End Copy and Paste
So, to answer the questions at hand, yes, of course we can break down the mathematical logical issues of an LS-V motor but that has never been my concern. That wasn’t the point of my post. My point was that early on we were having issues with motors that seemed to only be popping up when building LS-Vs; i.e. spun bearings, ring starvation and thrown rods etc.
For me this isn’t/wasn’t proof of anything other then that the block materials of an LS and a B18C are different, despite how they look; one of which should handle vibrations and performance stress better then the other. And yes, before any of you smart asses answer with block guard girdle comments remember that this was a while before we learned about what Honda was doing with the bottom end of a C5 block.
J.
Sounds like J. has his concerns for a very good reason and instead of jumping on his case you should take a second and listen. It sounds like you could learn something. It doesn’t matter how qualified you are, there is always going to be something you can learn and asking someone ‘what the fuck are you talking about?’ isn’t exactly a nice way to ask, so I commend J. for his professionalism and even responding to such a question as 'what the fuck are you talking about?". He was trying to help you guys out in the first place.
No disrespect man.
Heat dissipation? So a higher performing engine producing more heat would require it too yes? So they engineered the materials for the ls to dissipate more heat, but not handle more vibration, but the c1 to do one or both? That really doesn’t make any sense, from a business POV it would be more costly to mass produce blocks with material makeups that were vastly different, just not smart business. Nor does it explain why there are many builders who have succeeded in building them and have them NOT fail due to the issues you’ve described.
Again no disrespect J, but if builds you were having issues with consistently had issues, but others from then till today have not had them as often if at all would lead someone to logically deduce that perhaps there was some other factor involved.
I have forwarded your thoughts to Larry at Endyn for his thoughts. I trust him as he has, as I said, been around these cars for decades and has probably built and raced more b series engine combinations than anyone on here. Far as I’m concerned, he’s seen it all, and can give us all some great insight to the situation. Hopefully we can separate the facts from fiction and go on with our lives.
Integreddy - He never clarified in the first place just made a flat out statement with no backup anyone reading that woudl be very upset and confused as it directly pertains to the myths about ls/vtec reliability and failure. THat’s why ricecake got upset.
And I didn’t ask for help, i just wanted to put up my build thread and post progress of it. That’s all.
I give up…(goddammpeoplecanbeignorant)
Ice,
You are missing the big picture piece of my response…
I know that LS-Vs make great power, I know they are reliable and I know they can be built as well as anything that you can drop into a Honda chassis and that you shouldn’t have any problems with your build…but if I was you, and you clearly aren’t me, based on what I’ve seen, I’d invest a couple hundred bucks into a P72/P73 block because of the above email and experience I’ve seen over the last 17 years of building Hondas.
WHEN SOMEONE WHO IS CLOSER TO THE ORIGIN OF THE PRODUCT TELLS you “they may look the same, but there are differences in the material design,” I weigh the options and costs of that more purposeful part and make a decision.
Here is where my issue with your (Iceman’s) response begins:
I SURE AS HELL DON’T SHIT ON SOMEONE WHO WAS NICE ENOUGH TO RESPOND IN YOUR THREAD AND TRY TO ARGUE WITH THAT GUY (me!) ABOUT HOW YOU DON’T BELIEVE INFORMATION HE WAS NICE ENOUGH TO SHARE WITH YOU!
I have no stake in your build, I don’t give a shit in the least other then to share with some people in this build that KNOW ME AND WHO KNOW THAT I rarely have oppinions which I can’t directly relate back to a factual or logical purpose for. This question about the “differences in the block” has always been an oppinion based decision for a build…ALWAYS!
If you don’t agree, fine, I’m clearly only wasting my time for someone who might use your thread in the future as a reference.
YOU CLEARLY DON’T UNDERSTAND WHY SOMEONE LIKE ME OFFERS UP AN OPPINION, OR YOU THINK I REALLY CARE WHAT YOUR BUILD CONSISTS OF.
I wish you luck, and hope it all works out well, and let this post serve as a reminder to those that actually get a response from someone like me; i.e. older then dirt. It’s rare we have an oppinion without reason, so weigh it for what you feel it’s worth and continue on with your build. But, out of respect for someone else’s time and consideration, don’t reply with “I don’t buy it…” That’s just disrespectful.
And yes, Ice edited that line out of his post which is what seriously pissed me off because you might as well be calling me a liar!
Have a nice day,
J.