Iceman's All Motor Build Thread

GENERAL General G2/G2IC Discussion
101

I clearly underestimated the conversation I walked in to when I just asked some questions about the build, and thank GOD Dan took the time as my friend to perfectly summarize my ENTIRE INTENTIONS FOR THIS WHOLE ORDEAL:

J and I are alike in many ways and I know he was not saying your LS/VTEC was doomed to failure. He just wanted to spend your money on the Honda equation of reliability (B18C1 or B18C5) which has worked very well for both him and Marc. Correct me if I’m wrong J, but his point of view is why spend money on “questionable” reliability when you could have proven reliability for a small amount more. I understand the argument and still recommend B18C5 or poor mans ITR if the customer can afford it. But I also know that LS/VTEC or CR/VTEC can be a lot of bang for the buck so I keep the option open.

What Ice took as me not having back up for things I just assumed weren’t up for debate. When it became apparent to me that I was debating information about the nuances of Honda OEM pieces it donned on me how completely different levels we were all communicating on. I assume a base level of knowledge when we are talking in threads and I clearly did more harm than good because of the sensitivity of the owner and his miss understanding as to what the information I was offering up actually meant.

Rice,
Yes, the matrix of Honda’s Aluminum castings with Keihn are very secretive and unless you know how to read the specifications which Honda publicizes for their manufacturers everyone would assume that the blocks are all the same material, but they are far from. As the email I posted said and as Hondas own technical bulletins have referenced, they(Honda) has a matrix for purpose built parts including additional Graphite and Silicone (sand)in Type R (B16B and B18C/5) blocks for cooling and shape consistency.

The next time you’re at the dealer ask to see a copy of the Service Supplement for the 97’ Type R and look at the break out sheet for components. It’ll give you chills if you’re anything like me

When I was lucky enough to work as a summer intern in the MX program, 1992, I got to see the testing of these minuet changes on the track and it was as technical as infrared thermometers (which I had never seen before and it would be 10 years before they made their way into a Snap-On catalog), or these in head litmus strips (they actually measured heat) which would get sent out to a lab for carbon analyzing and an actual air fuel mixture reading, not a mathematical guess; i.e. ratios.

And to answer your question about whether or not I was running an oil cooler, yes. It was a 12x12" cooler with Earl’s Rubber Hosing and Silicone to AI ends mounted in the mouth of my bumper to the passenger side. It only lasted through my LS-V build and a base P72 build I ran for a total of about a year. I got into a real fickled motor phase before I figured out that playing with gearing was more rewarding and cheaper then blocks.

Kyle,
I don’t think anyone is defending LS blocks here, not even ICE. It was your question that shook me down to an equal level of communication. When I assumed that he (ICE) knew that a GSR oil delivery were FAR supperior to an LS I realized that we all might as well be standing with our backs to each other screaming into the wind.

My posts were about the geeky aspects of the make-up of the blocks themselves and he (ICE) wanted to talk about the differences. I assumed (this is where I went wrong) a base level of understanding regarding the differences and components of LS over C1 or vice versa.

The last time I cared enough about debating these merrits Bill Clinton was our President…:slight_smile:

The thing I’ve always loved about Honda is their, “nothing is universal” attitude and really that’s what I thought this thread was going to be more about. The fact that Ice actually took time in his last post to try to further debate the merits of an LS-V just shows I clearly need to spend all day online justifying my existence and experience, or I should avoid helping at all for risk of being questioned about everything I’ve learned over the last two decades…oh, and be called OLD (LOL).

J.

102

i stopped reading halfway up the last page. i think it makes perfect business sense that honda would have different blocks which consist of different materials. for example, look at gm in the early 90’s… thy had three variations of the 350. one was aluminum, one was their regular material, and the other was a high-nickel blend. the high nickel blend block lends itself better to high performance applications!

although honda puts their quality engineering/ design into everything they do, i am sure that their engineers,managers, and accountants understand (as over there, they all work as a big team) the meaning of purpose-built and would want to be efficient enough (costwise) to select using a material that is functional and economically suited to doing what its supposed to do! i may be wrong but i would doubt it.

103

J. again, thank you for an explanation. I might have to check out the literature, as I am kind of a geek of sorts. I apologize if I stepped on your toes as I have been accused, probably fairly, of doing. What I saw you claiming seemed absolutely preposterous, maybe it is not. Most things are up for debate, and I tend to question what I am told. Personally, I tend to be more accepting when there is an explanation of ones thought process. I have no problem with you, not that you care I am sure.

gilcontr, since when did GM have a mass produced aluminum 350 small block in the early 90s? Yes, I too am aware of the high nickel content blocks, which have been around since at least the early 70s, but to me the major difference it that it affects the cylinder bore wear, an aluminum block is a little different in that the sleeve materials would be the main area of concern, but I do see your point.

DB2-R81, I fail to see where you have managed to dig up any dirt. Try to be a little less condescending in the future and people might be a little more willing to listen to you, not that you care. You have contributed nothing to the thread except smart ass retorts, which seems to be how you operate.

104

i was thinking about the LT5. not “mass produced” per se but it was a sort of 350. i guess it doesn’t matter. good to see that some of the issue has been resolved!

105

Iceman, slightly OT, but maybe get things back on track here. here’s some more info just to give you a heads up

on the OEM LS rods, watch for rod stretch above 9200 rpm. regardless of if you use ARP rod bolts or not, if they do stretch too much, the rod bolts can come loose, which can lead to premature failure when exposed for too long at high RPMs

Happens moreso on 84mm and above pistons, or CTRs however, i believe due to their weight 300+grams. just something else to consider, and this may or may not have anything to do directly with which block you decide to run.

You might want to talk to DonF on HT directly about this as he was the one who pointed it out to me, and there have been a few failures related to this issue.

PS, can we talk about something else? like gearing perhaps? I know you said “all motor” build, but there’s more to a build than just a block, crank, piston, head and cam selection

.J. builds a sick ass transmission I will guarantee you that. I reduced my average 1/4 times by .5 seconds and increased my trapspeed by 4 mph with gearing alone (vs. stock b16 ys1 gearing with LSD)

106

[QUOTE=viprtwo;1997135]Iceman, slightly OT, but maybe get things back on track here. here’s some more info just to give you a heads up

on the OEM LS rods, watch for rod stretch above 9200 rpm. regardless of if you use ARP rod bolts or not, if they do stretch too much, the rod bolts can come loose, which can lead to premature failure when exposed for too long at high RPMs

Happens moreso on 84mm and above pistons, or CTRs however, i believe due to their weight 300+grams. just something else to consider, and this may or may not have anything to do directly with which block you decide to run.

You might want to talk to DonF on HT directly about this as he was the one who pointed it out to me, and there have been a few failures related to this issue.

PS, can we talk about something else? like gearing perhaps? I know you said “all motor” build, but there’s more to a build than just a block, crank, piston, head and cam selection

.J. builds a sick ass transmission I will guarantee you that. I reduced my average 1/4 times by .5 seconds and increased my trapspeed by 4 mph with gearing alone (vs. stock b16 ys1 gearing with LSD)[/QUOTE]

I have heard this from another person as well and was told to talk to Don if I had questions. I don’t plan on spinning it that high. I’ll stop where the cams stop making power. However I will definately watch for this anyway, you just never know right

as to gearing we are discussing it. transmission rebuild will follow this. a new 3-4 gearset from honda, new carbon synchros and collars, m factory lsd, and we’ll continue to play with gearing ideas. i like my short geared ys1, it seems to be a great all around setup. i have been playing with ideas.

107

what type of racing to you plan on doing??

if you plan to go drag racing at all, you’ll want to keep your redline as high as possible.

go with the m-factory 3.070 first gear as well since you are already doing their LSD. its great for 0-60

108

UPDATE*

Cleaned and scrubbed the block. Began assembly Sunday. For anyone who’s interested . . . i’ll post up how to put them together.

Step 1: Clean the Cyl Walls of all honing grit and grime. This takes patience. Automatic Transmission Fluid works well, and has great cleaning properties. WD40 works too. I hit them with brakekleen first, then went to work scrubbing.

Be sure if you’re using ATF, SOAK the towel. Be liberal with it. I basically soaked a towel, scrubbed cyl1, then got a new towel and did it again, repeating until the rag comes out clean. First time you do it, you’ll be able to see how dirty and black it comes out, despite looking clean.

Once you’re done, some more brakekleen and a BOUNTY paper towel will remove all the lint and such from the towel.

Here the bearings are installed as well as the main studs. Before installing the bearings i took another paper towel soaked in brakekleen and LIGHTLY wiped the surfaces down.

Crankshaft was cleaned off all assembly lube and oils, as well as the surfaces soaked in brakekleen and let dry. Here it is sitting in the cradle.

Here you can see the journals clearly, as well as the dimpling done when it was balanced.

Setting the plastigauge
.

Installed the main caps, main girdle, and hand tighten the main hardware.

Torquing to spec, inside out, 40 ftlbs then to spec.

We stopped for the day here, due to an unforseen issue when we removed the main caps to measure the clearance, i’ll explain later.

109

you use arp main studs?

110

yes.

post here.

http://www.g2ic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192693&page=4

111

:dozing:

112

Considering your post in the national meets thread, im taking it there arnt many updates.

Im in for some anyways:D :up:

113

Damn you Rob and Kyle, got me repeating BNA all day at work today… wtf?

114

Been outta work for a while. Makes it hard to get shit done.

I did finally get the oil leak situation fixed. Apparently in my exhaustion I didn’t tighten down the RMS cap tight enough.

I also discovered my throw out bearing was missing a foot (pic to follow).

It runs fantastically. Starts fantastically. Corners beautifully (new Eibach Suspension finally installed).

I’m picking up paint today to get it somewhat cosmetically pleasing. I also picked up some faux suede for the headliner. Might as well get it looking decent too.

Baby steps. Going to weld an exhaust leak shut next week, as well as wrap the center (to relieve the overheating center console). I’ll finish up the tune and take it on the annual branson trip. When I get back, i’ll get some more done.

Off to get paint.

115

Hey Iceman, is there any way you could fix ur pix? I am interested in seeing what locals are doing nowadays.