Alright so I am looking at upgrading my suspension to give a little less body roll and a little bette rhandlong so I am looking at upgrading my rear sway bar. I am looking at the Suspension Techniques sway bar for the rear and I am wondering if I should go ahead and put the matching ST one up front or if I should save that $150. The reason I am wondering is because the stock sway bar on a G2 is 23mm already and the ST one is just under 24mm. Should I go with just the rear or should I go ahead and do both? My suspension set up right now is Koni Yellows and Eibach Sportlines on stock 14" wheels.
Another question I have is with the rear sway bar should I also go with a subframe brace or would that be overkill? This is my daily but I take it up to the Tail of the Dragon quite a bit and I want her to handle curves like no other, so that’s what I am trying to set her up for. Thanks in advance for the help
Upgraded sway bar bushing as in polyurethane bushings? What if I went with an ASR 24mm sway bar. That would make it 7x times stiffer correct? And I might as well ask, but what exactly does a subframe brace do? Stiffen up the chassis I am guessing, but does it do it better than say a rear Tie bar? Does it eliminate the need for a rear tie bar?
[QUOTE=scratchymaster;2113075]ST rear bar is only about twice as stiff as OEM.[/QUOTE]math to prove it?
OP: there are more then just ID of the bar that will make it stiffer.
[QUOTE=scratchymaster;2113075]Save that $150[/QUOTE]i agree. there are more options to the suspension that can be address prior to swapping sway bars to create a tighter set-up.
[QUOTE=scratchymaster;2113075]get upgraded swaybar bushings front and rear.[/QUOTE]while the OP is at it, they could swap out all the other bushings on the car.
(new diameter/old diameter)^4
ST rear swaybar is ~19mm
Stock rear swaybar is 14.7mm
(19/14.7)^4=2.79
What is ID?
[QUOTE=90DB1T;2113093] i agree. there are more options to the suspension that can be address prior to swapping sway bars to create a tighter set-up.
while the OP is at it, they could swap out all the other bushings on the car.[/QUOTE]
I am looking for a pretty rigid set up on this car. Sway bars are the next thing on my list. I have a ES polyurethane kit for my car I just have not finished putting it on. When I did shocks and springs I did the bushings on the shocks but I just haven’t had time to do the rest. What other things would you address to tighten up a suspension before you did sway bars?
[QUOTE=DAtIntegra35;2113226]Formula for calculating stiffness is
(new diameter/old diameter)^4
ST rear swaybar is ~19mm
Stock rear swaybar is 14.7mm
(19/14.7)^4=2.79[/QUOTE]wasnt asking you, more like asking if the previous poster really did the math to make the statement. the correction to your math is below:
Formula for sway bar stiffness of a solid steel bar
K (lbs/in) = 500,000 D^4 / (0.4244 x A^2 x B) + (0.2264 x C^3)
A - Length of end perpendicular to B (torque arm - inches)
B - Length of center section (inches)
C - Length of end (inches)
D - Diameter bar (inches)
not all the dimensions will be maintained as the bar OD has been changed, so a direct comparison based on OD alone cant be made and simplified to that limitation of measurement.
[QUOTE=DAtIntegra35;2113226]What is ID?[/QUOTE]that means inner diameter and was a mistake, i meant OD (outer diameter). if you put some random numbers in the actual equation for sway bar stiffness, you can see how minor changes to the sway bar increase the stiffness o the bar as a whole.
[QUOTE=DAtIntegra35;2113226]I am looking for a pretty rigid set up on this car. Sway bars are the next thing on my list. I have a ES polyurethane kit for my car I just have not finished putting it on. When I did shocks and springs I did the bushings on the shocks but I just haven’t had time to do the rest. What other things would you address to tighten up a suspension before you did sway bars?[/QUOTE]ok, so how far have you taken the suspension? shocks and springs dont give much, since there are so many combinations (including custom rates for springs and damper valving).
I have been wondering what my spring rates are so if you can point me in the direction to find those then I would love to find out what they are. The shocks are stiffened all the way up. I’m running on stock gs wheels and all season tires right now.
I don't think the question was how stiff the bar actually is, but rather how stiff is it in comparison to the OEM bar. Since only a comparison of K values (and not an actual numerical value) is asked, many assumptions can be made to simplify the math. The ST bar uses the same mounting points as the OEM bar, which means both bars are geometrically similar. This means that your A, B, C, and constant of 500,000 will be the same numbers for either swaybar. All that you are left with to compare K vales is the D^4 quantitiy.
I know that you provided the equation to appear smart, but you didn't do the math yourself. You specified that your equation requires all dimensions to be in inches even though the swaybars are listed in millimeters. Your equation provides little help because:
converting to millimeters, and then going to the 4th power of a stupid decimal number is retarded thanks to significant figures.
The only off the shelf options are the ST bar or a type R style bar. The Type R style bar bolts directly to the rear subframe and has an arm length that is about half the OEM length. That fact alone makes the type R bar wayyyy stiffer.
Because I actually want to help the g2ic community, here is by far the easiest way to mount the Type R rear swaybar on a G2 integra:
[QUOTE=scratchymaster;2113325]I don’t think the question was how stiff the bar actually is, but rather how stiff is it in comparison to the OEM bar. Since only a comparison of K values (and not an actual numerical value) is asked, many assumptions can be made to simplify the math. The ST bar uses the same mounting points as the OEM bar, which means both bars are geometrically similar. This means that your A, B, C, and constant of 500,000 will be the same numbers for either swaybar. All that you are left with to compare K vales is the D^4 quantitiy.[/QUOTE]last ST bar i had was on my old 99 civic hatchback. the demonstrations were entirely different then that of the OEM offerings for the 92-00 civic or 94-01 integra. even though it was only a few mm bigger it was more then a few times stiffer based on application. want the math? guess not, as your saying it doesnt matter anyway right?
[QUOTE=scratchymaster;2113325]I know that you provided the equation to appear smart, but you didn’t do the math yourself. You specified that your equation requires all dimensions to be in inches even though the swaybars are listed in millimeters. Your equation provides little help because:
converting to millimeters, and then going to the 4th power of a stupid decimal number is retarded thanks to significant figures.
The only off the shelf options are the ST bar or a type R style bar. The Type R style bar bolts directly to the rear subframe and has an arm length that is about half the OEM length. That fact alone makes the type R bar wayyyy stiffer.[/QUOTE]your right! i didnt do the math, as i dont have the dimensions to complete it. since you gave an amount to how much stiffer the bar was, i figured you did. hence me asking for your math. once the math was shown, it would be easy to show it to others that might ask for it. doesnt seem too much to ask for.
if you didnt want to convert the numbers, then dont. i would, as i like to have all the information before making any kind of statement about any item. sorry if i like math and science.
you stated two bars, however there are more like 3 different style bars. original oem style (ST [19mm] and progress [22mm]), 92-00 civic / 94-01 integra style, and the asr 32mm hollow bar. but again there are other items that can be addressed prior to swapping out the sway bar. bushings are a huge item. along with spring rates, damper valving, and suspension angles. personally, i have found that most cars DONT need sway bar swapping for street applications when all other suspension parts have been addressed.
[QUOTE=scratchymaster;2113325]Because I actually want to help the g2ic community, here is by far the easiest way to mount the Type R rear swaybar on a G2 integra:[/QUOTE]and i am not? strange, as i try to help where i can. i just dont happen to rollover when people make a statement. i simply asked for your math when you made your statement. pretty simple question, and i dont see why your getting hurt over it. guess its cause i didnt just accept YOUR opinion of something.
since i finally have a DB1 again, i’ll go ahead and get the ST (and progress) rear bar and fully compare it to the OEM bar.
[QUOTE=90DB1T;2113489] i have found that most cars DONT need sway bar swapping for street applications when all other suspension parts have been addressed.
[/QUOTE]
Ok I know you guys are having a math argument and that’s fine and dandy, but can we get back to one of my original questions? Your statement here says most street applications don’t need sway bar swapping. I’m not touching my front sway bar because there is no need for that but I am looking at swapping the rear because it does make a pretty significant difference from all accounts I have read on various sites. Where is your support for saying most cars don’t need sway bar swapping? Again, I want my car to handle very well when I take it up to Deal’s Gap which is usually once a month (at the least) in the summer and when I start Auto-x I want to have all of my suspension taken care of. If sway bars aren’t what I need to focus on and I have a polyurethane bushing kit waiting to be put on, where should I go from here? I am still working on getting my spring rates, which I should have Thursday once I get it up on the lift at work. So where should I look to instead of sway bars?
[QUOTE=90DB1T;2113574]camber kit installed?
LCA replaced or bushings replaced in it?
tire used, dimensions and brand?
what dampers (aka shocks/struts)?
what spring design?[/QUOTE]
Waiting on Skunk2 redesigned camber kit to come out
[QUOTE=DAtIntegra35;2113622]Waiting on Skunk2 redesigned camber kit to come out
Nothing done to LCA’s
Shocks are Koni Yellow as mentioned before
These are the springs. I had no idea there were different designs of springs[/QUOTE]1) i would suggest getting some for the rear (since there will not be any major design changes in those anytime soon), so you can dial in the static camber (thus effecting camber gain) of the rear wheels. also here is some very light reading for you: http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
either new aftermarket LCAs or replace the bushings in them with poly.
those are great, going to need a set of cones to map out a bit of area to dial in the adjustment setting of them.
the spring and damper combo you have is a good starting point. full coil-overs are where the money is for a true track ready car, in my opinion. however koni yellows + ground control sleeve-overs (coil-overs) is a proven set-up.
I run no front camber kit. I just drop the nose of the car barely high enough for my Harbor freight jack to fit under the center jack point. This makes the front wheels cambered in a tad more than 2 degrees, which is fine for aggressive autoX.
What you haven’t really stated is how the car handles currently and what you would like changed about that. You need to drive your car enough to know this “baseline” handling characteristic otherwise you won’t know if a suspension change helped or not.
Swaybars affect steady state cornering the most. Find an autoX or an empty space and do hard 2nd gear circles following the same path on the pavement. Using steering and throttle changes you should be able to redirect the car very accurately. On my car I can get some oversteer if I turn harder and punch the gas after the apex. If you can never get oversteer no matter how u toss the car, then maybe a stiffer rear sway is what you need.
I know that my car has a lot of understeer. When I take a sharp curve and try to stick down on it, the front end likes to plow through it and I have throttle back to get through it. I am gonna go try the driving around in a circle a little later and see what I can learn about my car. I want to get a better handle on the understeer problem that these cars naturally have, and so to me that means beef up the rear sway bar. There is a 7 mile stretch behind my work that we use as a test section. It is pretty curvy and will be able to give me a good baseline as to what my car can do. I have run it before but I’m probably gonna run it 5 or 6 times before I put the subframe brace and sway bar on and then run it to see if it makes a difference.
Torn bushings mean the rear tires can toe in and out as they please, making it very difficult to control the rear end. If you want a track setup and go for the poly bushings, do that before any more modification as these can be quite a difference from OEM. If you go OEM bushings, do these after you are happy with your ride height and spring selection since these do not freely rotate like the poly bushings and need to be precisely clocked to match your alignment.
I used to have a badly torn right TA bushing. The times I went to the track and spun out were all left hand turns, so guess what caused them.
idk if any one answered but the sub frame brace is designed to cause less stress on the subframe to prevent tear out from running a larger diameter sway bar.
unlike the Type-r integra, the lower model integras have weaker sub frames due to weaker metal and welds.
[QUOTE=mildsquare;2113801]idk if any one answered but the sub frame brace is designed to cause less stress on the subframe to prevent tear out from running a larger diameter sway bar.
unlike the Type-r integra, the lower model integras have weaker sub frames due to weaker metal and welds.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I posted this on another forum also and the rear sub frame brace is a must if you do a thicker rear sway bar.