So I have looked around on here and some other sights and can’t really gather any useful information. I am about to embark on an engine build but I can’t figure out which way I want to go with it. It starts with a 93 GS with a B18A motor with I/H/E. I had a 98 GSR head with 30k miles on it dropped in my lap for a price to good to pass up for the condition and everything included with it. Now, here is my dilemma. Should I just do a mild LS/Vtec by just putting on the GSR head with a Golden Eagle LS/VTEC kit and ARP hardware and maybe upgrade the cams and cam gears or should I buy a GSR block to mate with my GSR head and make it a straight GSR swap? I am a college student so of course I am on a budget and I am not looking to dump 5 grand into a build. I am looking to spend $1500-$2000 and I am hoping for right around 180-200 whp. What are the benefits of doing a LS/VTEC over a GSR build, and vice versa. Are there any con’s to doing either of these builds? What is going to be the best bang for my buck? If anyone can direct me to another thread with this info, that would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!
well, i prefer lsvtec to gsr, just my take. the lsvtec puts out pretty good power. the question is, are you planning on boosting or staying na? the advantage of doing a lsvtec is you allready have the ls bottom. since you allready have the head, you should be able to do the mild build (arp bolts, new engine kit, lsvtec kit) for under $1000 if your staying na then pick up some gsr pistons to put in it and you’ll be at the power you want.
If you plan on doing the smart thing and doing a rebuild/freshening up of both the head and block then you don’t have enough money to do either build. Unless you don’t have to pay labor for your machine work. And even then, the cost of seals, bearings, gaskets, water pump, timing belt… all really ads up. And is that all you really need? Think about everything else. What transmission do you have? If you’re going vtec, you’re going to want a short geared trans. How are your other components on the car? Axles? radiator?..etc.
I personally would recommend that you don’t buy that head or any other motor specific parts till you really sit down and figure it out. A good deal on one part doesn’t mean you should build an entire engine around that part. Find your budget, find your ideal swap for that budget, and move backwards from there. And remember, your “ideal” swap at this point may just be a stepping stone to future builds.
I don’t have your full mod list, but judging by what I do know I would start building from the outside in. Start getting parts you can use on almost anything, and do the engine when you can down the road. I’d start w/ a clutch, flywheel and a fully rebuilt GSR YS1 w/ LSD (or other short geared internals).
disregarding cost a real gsr will be better then a ls/vtec even though i have a ls/vtec myself. the gsr block is made to rev high. the ls block can handle it with some mods but the gsr block is made to rev high which will maybe save you hassle down the road.
for everything else i agree with colin.
[QUOTE=Colin;2058289]If you plan on doing the smart thing and doing a rebuild/freshening up of both the head and block then you don’t have enough money to do either build. Unless you don’t have to pay labor for your machine work. And even then, the cost of seals, bearings, gaskets, water pump, timing belt… all really ads up. And is that all you really need? Think about everything else. What transmission do you have? If you’re going vtec, you’re going to want a short geared trans. How are your other components on the car? Axles? radiator?..etc.
I personally would recommend that you don’t buy that head or any other motor specific parts till you really sit down and figure it out. A good deal on one part doesn’t mean you should build an entire engine around that part. Find your budget, find your ideal swap for that budget, and move backwards from there. And remember, your “ideal” swap at this point may just be a stepping stone to future builds.
I don’t have your full mod list, but judging by what I do know I would start building from the outside in. Start getting parts you can use on almost anything, and do the engine when you can down the road. I’d start w/ a clutch, flywheel and a fully rebuilt GSR YS1 w/ LSD (or other short geared internals).[/QUOTE]
I know you are probably thinking that I am an impulse buyer which in some reagrds is true but as far as me buying the head before figuring out which build I wanted to do was more of a business move than anything. When I say I got a good deal on it I am not exaggerating. The reason I bought it is because I knew that even if i decided not to use it I could sell it and make some cash off of it.
Now, as far as your “find your budget” statement, I know my budget. It is listed in the OP. When you say that I am not going to have enough money to do either swap, what exactly do you mean? I am struggling to see where me thinking that $2k is not enough to do a swap. Now, $2k might not be enough to achieve my horsepower goals so if that is the case then please tell me.
What kind of horsepower can I expect from a fully stock GSR swap before swapping cams, cam gears, pistons etc.? what kind of horsepower can I expect with a stock LS bottom end and a freshened up stock GSR top end?
well what kind of power are we talking? Just a guestimate.
And as far as boost, if i go ls/v then I will probably stay NA but if I do the GSR then I am going to be tempted to supercharge it and stay around 10-12lbs, but that would be later down the road. It would be more likely for me to put the GSR on spray, but again thats later down the road.
[QUOTE=DAtIntegra35;2058362]I know you are probably thinking that I am an impulse buyer which in some reagrds is true but as far as me buying the head before figuring out which build I wanted to do was more of a business move than anything. When I say I got a good deal on it I am not exaggerating. The reason I bought it is because I knew that even if i decided not to use it I could sell it and make some cash off of it.
Now, as far as your “find your budget” statement, I know my budget. It is listed in the OP. When you say that I am not going to have enough money to do either swap, what exactly do you mean? I am struggling to see where me thinking that $2k is not enough to do a swap. Now, $2k might not be enough to achieve my horsepower goals so if that is the case then please tell me.
[/QUOTE]
This is a VERY BASIC price list not a detailed one, I’m not going to mention every little thing. I personally wouldn’t do any less than on this list.
- Machine work, bearings, assembly $800-$1200
- Pistons (if doing ls/vtec) $50-$300
- OEM parts $500
- ARP Rod bolts $80
- Clutch $250
- Resurface stock flywheel or buy a decent aftermarket one $30-$350
- Ecu $50-$100
- Tuning software $0-$500
- Transmission $350-$1500
- Fluids $50-$100
- Dyno Tuning $250-$400
Not to mention other little bits and pieces you may need, for instance, do you need a new distributor? do you need new axles? engine mounts? you’ll need a new upper rad hose at minimum. What about intake manifold? throttle body? Some of that stuff may have come w/ your head, I’m not sure.
This stuff has been talked about a billion times, I’d really recommend spending 6-8 months saving money and buying nothing, just do research. You’ll often find that after really diving in and doing the research that you come to a different conclusion that you had thought you might.
[QUOTE=Colin;2058388]This is a VERY BASIC price list not a detailed one, I’m not going to mention every little thing. I personally wouldn’t do any less than on this list.
- Machine work, bearings, assembly $800-$1200
- Pistons (if doing ls/vtec) $50-$300
- OEM parts $500
- ARP Rod bolts $80
- Clutch $250
- Resurface stock flywheel or buy a decent aftermarket one $30-$350
- Ecu $50-$100
- Tuning software $0-$500
- Transmission $350-$1500
- Fluids $50-$100
- Dyno Tuning $250-$400
Not to mention other little bits and pieces you may need, for instance, do you need a new distributor? do you need new axles? engine mounts? you’ll need a new upper rad hose at minimum. What about intake manifold? throttle body? Some of that stuff may have come w/ your head, I’m not sure.
This stuff has been talked about a billion times, I’d really recommend spending 6-8 months saving money and buying nothing, just do research. You’ll often find that after really diving in and doing the research that you come to a different conclusion that you had thought you might.[/QUOTE]
You are right this stuff has been talked about a billion times. Probably a trillion times, but there is something different in every build. Your first item listed is machine work,bearings, and assembley. What kind of machine work is needed when doing a GSR swap if I am to go that route? And as far as the cost on some of the items, I can get a lot of that stuff cheaper because I work at a Honda dealership, and because of that we have a bunch of different outside sources that I get discounts through. So from your list I’ll say it would cost somwhere in the neighborhood $2400. I could probably keep my cost down to $2k with my discounts and what not. As far as a dyno tune goes, I doubt I will get it dynoed at first because there is a guy in my area that has a lot of experience doing street tunes on Honda’s with eCtune. There has been many cases where he tuned a car and they took it to a dyno and couldn’t make any more power with it. And he is reasonably priced also. I guess the only real expense would be the transmission. Now I am going to ask this question and I already know what your answer is going to be but I will ask anyway. Couldn’t I do the build, whether it be GSR or LS/V, and then get a transmission later? Now i know “whats the point of having extra power of you can’t put it to the ground,” but from a cost stand point I think that is a little more logical. Maybe that makes no sense but it does in my head.
Yeah, every build is different, but the basics like I mentioned above are pretty much the same. You start getting differences when you start upgrading valvetrain and other sorts of parts. Even with a discount the OEM parts are going to cost a fortune. I’ve been able to get 20-30% discounts on parts for both of my builds and my bills for OEM parts this most recent time around was WELL over $500 - of course this time I’ve bought a lot of little stuff I didn’t really have to have.
I doubt this guy can do that good of a tune that a pro on a dyno wouldn’t be able to get more power - I’m assuming of course that the dyno tune is done w/ a high quality software such as Hondata and not just a vafc or something.
In regard to machine shop work and an ls/vtec. I don’t see the point in using a stock block, at minimum you’ll want to upgrade pistons and install ARP rod bolts. At this point everything is apart and you’d be stupid not to just go all the way.
- you’ll want to replace pistons, you’ll need to pay to have your old ones removed and the new ones put on your rods. Depending on the piston you may also need extra machining to make them fit.
- It might be a good idea to get the rods shot peened
- ARP rod bolts installed
- New bearings installed
- Micropolish crank
- balance rotating assembly
- deck the head
- bore cylinders (if needed)
- hone cylinders
- assemble bottom end
In regard to machine shop work if you use a gsr bottom end, the machine work depends on the condition of the block. If you get a good one you may just want to use it untouched. Unless of course you want to upgrade the pistons or other components. Then you start getting into a similar situation as above.
As for the transmission, yes, you could add the trans at anytime. But personally I look at that as sort of backwards. Step one would be getting a short geared trans paired w/ your b18a. Step two would be getting the vtec engine. This is somewhat personal preference, but in general I’d rather have a non-vtec engine paired w/ an awesome transmission than have a stockish vtec engine w/ an LS trans. Depending on the situation the former may even be faster, and it sure is a hell of a lot of fun to drive like that.
stock b18a + short geared trans = one step forward
ls/vtec or b18c1 + long geared trans = one step forward, one step back
[QUOTE=Colin;2058486]Yeah, every build is different, but the basics like I mentioned above are pretty much the same. You start getting differences when you start upgrading valvetrain and other sorts of parts. Even with a discount the OEM parts are going to cost a fortune. I’ve been able to get 20-30% discounts on parts for both of my builds and my bills for OEM parts this most recent time around was WELL over $500 - of course this time I’ve bought a lot of little stuff I didn’t really have to have.
I doubt this guy can do that good of a tune that a pro on a dyno wouldn’t be able to get more power - I’m assuming of course that the dyno tune is done w/ a high quality software such as Hondata and not just a vafc or something.
In regard to machine shop work and an ls/vtec. I don’t see the point in using a stock block, at minimum you’ll want to upgrade pistons and install ARP rod bolts. At this point everything is apart and you’d be stupid not to just go all the way.
- you’ll want to replace pistons, you’ll need to pay to have your old ones removed and the new ones put on your rods. Depending on the piston you may also need extra machining to make them fit.
- It might be a good idea to get the rods shot peened
- ARP rod bolts installed
- New bearings installed
- Micropolish crank
- balance rotating assembly
- deck the head
- bore cylinders (if needed)
- hone cylinders
- assemble bottom end
In regard to machine shop work if you use a gsr bottom end, the machine work depends on the condition of the block. If you get a good one you may just want to use it untouched. Unless of course you want to upgrade the pistons or other components. Then you start getting into a similar situation as above.
As for the transmission, yes, you could add the trans at anytime. But personally I look at that as sort of backwards. Step one would be getting a short geared trans paired w/ your b18a. Step two would be getting the vtec engine. This is somewhat personal preference, but in general I’d rather have a non-vtec engine paired w/ an awesome transmission than have a stockish vtec engine w/ an LS trans. Depending on the situation the former may even be faster, and it sure is a hell of a lot of fun to drive like that.
stock b18a + short geared trans = one step forward
ls/vtec or b18c1 + long geared trans = one step forward, one step back[/QUOTE]
what would be a short geared trans that i should be looking for that will bolt up to my ls motor? would i be alright going with a gsr lsd trans? or should i look for something different?
B16 tranny !
i want something with lsd…b16’s with lsd are hard to find. i am leaning more towards an aftermarket transmission like a quaife lsd for a 94-01 gsr.something along those lines
I hate to say it but Colin is exactly right on this one. I know quite a few guys who work at the local Acura dealership as techs. I can tell you that pulling your motor out, doing some work to the new one, and then putting it in is going to suck later. Be smart, save your money, build it right, and then drop it in.
Remember too, the B18A was not a VTEC motor so it was not built to rev real high and that’s where VTEC lives. I’m not saying that it can’t handle it but build it right.
A friend of mine built a LS/VTEC for his CRX HF; it had a B16 tranny on it and all of the typical bolt ons. I helped him with it quite a bit and can tell you from personal experience, take your time, do it right.
To sum it up, trust those with experience and save your money and do it right.
[QUOTE=sry2say;2060438]I hate to say it but Colin is exactly right on this one. I know quite a few guys who work at the local Acura dealership as techs. I can tell you that pulling your motor out, doing some work to the new one, and then putting it in is going to suck later. Be smart, save your money, build it right, and then drop it in.
Remember too, the B18A was not a VTEC motor so it was not built to rev real high and that’s where VTEC lives. I’m not saying that it can’t handle it but build it right.
A friend of mine built a LS/VTEC for his CRX HF; it had a B16 tranny on it and all of the typical bolt ons. I helped him with it quite a bit and can tell you from personal experience, take your time, do it right.
To sum it up, trust those with experience and save your money and do it right.[/QUOTE]
yeah i have been thinkin about what colin has and i have decided to go with the trans swap first and then start saving and build the motor. now the question is, which transmission? if i am going to spend money on a trans i want something with lsd, so instead of hunting down a facotry trans with lsd and possibly paying an arm and a leg for it, i am thinkin of going with a quaife GSR lsd transmission… sound like a good plan or is there a better one?
-find a gsr ys1 and install a quaife or mfactory lsd in it (what i did and its awesome)
-use your current ls ys1 trans (or find one cheap that needs a rebuild) and swap in gsr, type-r internals and get a quaife or mfactory lsd.
[QUOTE=redtegra;2060605]-find a gsr ys1 and install a quaife or mfactory lsd in it (what i did and its awesome)
-use your current ls ys1 trans (or find one cheap that needs a rebuild) and swap in gsr, type-r internals and get a quaife or mfactory lsd.[/QUOTE]
whats going to be the better trans for a gsr build? i am guessing the gsr with lsd…
it’s really up to you and your budget and what you can find. what ratio’s you want and etc. the gsr ys1/b16/type-r trans will be the shortest ones. the gsr hydro internals in the middle and the ls the longest. there’s so many different little ratios between years and all it can get a little complicated. the easiest with the least work involved would be to find a gsr ys1 and install a lsd.
The LSVTEC has more potential then a GSR do to stroke… nuff said.
i think that i am going to go GSR when i do the swap but right now i am trying to save up and buy a GSR trans and then i am going to concentrate on the swap
what would be considered a good price on a hydro GSR trans?