Someone said that a LS engin is cheap. This is true so why not
Originally posted by fastacuralover
[B]Someone said that a LS engin is cheap. This is true so why not
well see you still have to rebuild the LS motor. so one you gotta buy a turbo kit and on top of that build up another motor? i say just build up another motor [or your existing motor] to all motor specs. sure you wont be able to say i have 250whp. but who cares if it still brings you a 14sec timeslip [?] compared to a 150whp also bringing in a 14sec timeslip. sorry if i dont match the whp and 1/4 times exactly im just trying to make a point. with all motor you dont need crazy hp.
Originally posted by 2simplex
well see you still have to rebuild the LS motor. so one you gotta buy a turbo kit and on top of that build up another motor? i say just build up another motor [or your existing motor] to all motor specs. sure you wont be able to say i have 250whp. but who cares if it still brings you a 14sec timeslip [?] compared to a 150whp also bringing in a 14sec timeslip. sorry if i dont match the whp and 1/4 times exactly im just trying to make a point. with all motor you dont need crazy hp.
OK I agree heres a quote “winning is winning” be it turbo or all motor. BUT with more HP would you not also have more TORQ? At the very least you have more off the line. I see this as a point to, how many times do you make it to the track? Is spending the bucks worth the every few months trip to the track? So how do you make a all motor car fast, and I mean more then exaust, intake, headerss. Yea thats importent but there got to be more. And how do you do this with out going Vtec.
Originally posted by fastacuralover
OK I agree heres a quote “winning is winning” be it turbo or all motor. BUT with more HP would you not also have more TORQ? At the very least you have more off the line. I see this as a point to, how many times do you make it to the track? Is spending the bucks worth the every few months trip to the track? So how do you make a all motor car fast, and I mean more then exaust, intake, headerss. Yea thats importent but there got to be more. And how do you do this with out going Vtec.
if you saw a dyno graph of an all motor versus a turbo LS the torque on a correctly built all motor would have a nice flat line torque while a turbo would be linear [increasing as rpm’s increase]. building an all motor LS consists of your basic i/h/e with higher lift cams and higher compression ratio pistons. then head porting, increases fuel flow and etc would be needed to get everything working correctly.
i/h/e??? may be dumb question but what that stand for? so are you saying that the torq is better on the all motor car or turbo?
i/h/e i:stands for Intake: as in cold air intake and not the entire thing! h: headers and e: for exhaust
But for me i/h/e should be
i: cold air intake,Throttle body, and intake manifold!
H: headers (cant get much more here
e: high flow cat, and a cat back exhaust not an axle back or just diff muffler!
Call me picky but tho me thats a real i/h/e swap! but on this borad i/h/e is just intake /header/exhaust!
Originally posted by twin54
[B]i/h/e i:stands for Intake: as in cold air intake and not the entire thing! h: headers and e: for exhaust
But for me i/h/e should be
i: cold air intake,Throttle body, and intake manifold!
H: headers (cant get much more here
e: high flow cat, and a cat back exhaust not an axle back or just diff muffler!
Call me picky but tho me thats a real i/h/e swap! but on this borad i/h/e is just intake /header/exhaust! [/B]
your way is more thorough but for any beginer in modify cars they should just stick to an intake, header and exhuast because is they change the intake manifold and TB they might change the velocity of the air coming in or letting to much air come in. so then they’ll need to upgrade fuel via injectors or FPR, then to help ignite the fuel they might need to play with their timing of ignition. you see where im going. basic intake/header/exhuast cant really mess up a newbies setup but once you start going further into it. it gets a little difficult for some people.
Originally posted by twin54
[B]i/h/e i:stands for Intake: as in cold air intake and not the entire thing! h: headers and e: for exhaust
But for me i/h/e should be
i: cold air intake,Throttle body, and intake manifold!
H: headers (cant get much more here
e: high flow cat, and a cat back exhaust not an axle back or just diff muffler!
Call me picky but tho me thats a real i/h/e swap! but on this borad i/h/e is just intake /header/exhaust! [/B]
Hey thanx I knew all that but I did not want to assume. Your right if your gonns do it you need to go sll the way. I have been trying to read all lot more on all motor stuff. The current SUPER STREEET has a two cars with good set ups. What do you think about the LS/vtec? VS the CRV/VTEC, VS Simpple LS build up. In the last few summit catoluges they built up a ls to put it against a GSR. Have you read this? I know you can build an LS up to beat a GSR, but is there a point that the LS wont get to that the GSR or vtech will.
Re: The Challenge: V-tec Killer
wouldnt it be easier and cost efficient to go ls/vtec it would cost me $1200 thats the b16 head[w/ all head components installed] and the labor and you’d have a engine to rival a type r and then all who oppose 2nd gen tegs would perish on the 1320 mu ha ha muh ahahahah
DONT GET ME WRONG, I DO BELIEVE THAT HONDA’S ENGINEERS ARE SOME OF THE SMARTEST MF’S ON THE PLANET. WITH THAT SAID, I ALSO THINK THAT VTEC IS WAY OVERRATED. IT’S JUST MY OPINION, BUT VTEC IS ONLY A GOOD THING FOR DRAG RACING. AND CMON LETS FACE IT, ANYONE CAN GO FAST IN A STRAIGHT LINE. MY FORTE IS REGIONAL ROAD RACING AND THE LAST THING I WANT AS I HEEL\TOE INTO THE APEX OF A HAIRPIN, IS FOR MY CAM PROFILE TO CHANGE ABRUPTLY AND SEND ME INTO THE TIRE BARRIER AT 65MPH. VTEC WAS DESIGNED FOR PASSING BIG-RIGS ON THE INTERSTATE, NOT AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR BRUTE FORCE GRASSROOTS TUNING. AGAIN THAT IS JUST MY OPINION, TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK.
HAPPINESS IS IN THE CORNER (:
If VTEC “changes abruptly”, the engine isn’t tuned properly. Plus, with a VTEC transmisson you shouldn’t be falling out of VTEC after a shift.
Honda designed VTEC to give the top end power of a performance cam while keeping some low end and fuel economy that a full race LS cam cannot do (as easily). Of course it’s not a substitute for tuning, but a tuned LS vs. tuned VTEC, who will win?
I do realize that VTEC will not “change abruptly”, I was simply making the point that a non-VTEC application is more suitable for road racing and that VTEC lends itself to the 1/4 mile. I guess when you ask “LS vs. VTEC, who will win”; you must be referring to drag. In which case VTEC will always take it. If both engines are comparably tuned, the one with more HP to start, should be able to maintain that margin after tuning.
the one wioth the most hp? Umm dude why would the one with the most hp win? What if the one without had more torque and got to its max hp faster than that of the v-tech? V-tec is good but before the v-tec kicks in most of them are pretty slow and thats why most peeps use hight launch rpms! You cant just look at a cars hp and say that once there both tuned the one with the most hp will win the torque has a big deal to do with who will win! look at a b18a vs b16a for instance. The b18 will have better launch for the torque and will prob beat the b16 but the b16’s top end will kill the b18 whyli on a roll!
Ok, let me ask you this. Which one would win if they were both bone stock & fresh off the showroom floor? The VTEC right? Well thats my point, if both are comparably tuned (ie: same intake, exhaust, header, etc.) then the VTEC should still have the edge. When you start talking about replacing things like cams, ignition systems, and making timing adjustments, you are then comparing apples to oranges and the term “comparably tuned” can no longer be used. You may as well ask, “Turbo or non-turbo?” I agree that VTEC has its advantages, but so does N/A.
Look, in all fairness most of you guys know your s**t. I am extremely biased toward non-VTEC mainly because that is what I own and I have not had the opportunity to really get inside a VTEC. What I mean when I say that VTEC is overrated, is that I sick & GD tired of hearing my brother’s friends talk about how fast thier car is going to be when the do a VTEC swap. These kids dont have a f’ing clue what they are doing and just think that VTEC sound cool. Anyway, I appreciate the fact that most of the members here have a common goal, showing the world that G2’s rule.
Originally posted by twin54
the one wioth the most hp? Umm dude why would the one with the most hp win? What if the one without had more torque and got to its max hp faster than that of the v-tech? V-tec is good but before the v-tec kicks in most of them are pretty slow and thats why most peeps use hight launch rpms! You cant just look at a cars hp and say that once there both tuned the one with the most hp will win the torque has a big deal to do with who will win! look at a b18a vs b16a for instance. The b18 will have better launch for the torque and will prob beat the b16 but the b16’s top end will kill the b18 whyli on a roll!
If you want to compare, at least compare ALL factors that play a part in acceleration. You left out gearing and vehicle weight for instance. Lets stick with your B16 vs B18a arguement here. Ask you dad (the mechanic) and he will tell you the following is true: A car that makes a high peak torque of 111lbs (B16) has a better advantage over the car that makes 126ftlbs (B18) at a lower rpm. Why? Because the car with the high torque (B16) can take advantage of gearing. Remember. You can multiply torque though gears. Take this into account and look at vehicle weight as well and you can begin to understand how the two engines will accelerate any given car. I don’t care to take the time to lay it all out for you here, but I can tell you this. The B16 is going to be quicker then the B18a stock for stock or mod for mod, period. There is no arguing this. If you still don’t believe me then calculate it all out, see how much power the B16 lays down after taking into account gearing, and you will quickly see the differences.
Originally posted by SiCivic99
If you want to compare, at least compare ALL factors that play a part in acceleration. You left out gearing and vehicle weight for instance. Lets stick with your B16 vs B18a arguement here. Ask you dad (the mechanic) and he will tell you the following is true: A car that makes a high peak torque of 111lbs (B16) has a better advantage over the car that makes 126ftlbs (B18) at a lower rpm. Why? Because the car with the high torque (B16) can take advantage of gearing. Remember. You can multiply torque though gears. Take this into account and look at vehicle weight as well and you can begin to understand how the two engines will accelerate any given car. I don’t care to take the time to lay it all out for you here, but I can tell you this. The B16 is going to be quicker then the B18a stock for stock or mod for mod, period. There is no arguing this. If you still don’t believe me then calculate it all out, see how much power the B16 lays down after taking into account gearing, and you will quickly see the differences.
My point exactly, thank you.
VTEC is definately overrated in my opinion. If you take 2 cars with the same horsepower, the non-vtec will slaughter the VTEC. so when people say how awesome VTEC is i think it’s stupid it’s clearly slower when matched against a non-vtec engine of the same horsepower.
i know that in reality all of Honda’s best engine’s are VTEC, so in that way it does rule. IMO VTEC does not rule at all, and was only inveted for fuel efficiency and smoother idles, it definately was not invented with performance in mind. just imagine if they made a 190hp non-vtec engine, it would absolutely rape a b18c Type-R.
what would you do
what would you do??? ive got a 1990 ‘Teg’ with a b18a i want reliability but i want to decimate all and i dont want to have to worry about a smog problem with a b16. would you go ls vtec turbo which would put me way over type-r status even if the type r had a turbo but i want reliablity. or would you build up your b18a with crower top end and type r pistons and turbo it let me know im curious, thanx bro …
Fast Mercenary
long live the the DA integra and may those who oppose it see it from behind.
Originally posted by scooby_dooby
[B]VTEC is definately overrated in my opinion. If you take 2 cars with the same horsepower, the non-vtec will slaughter the VTEC. so when people say how awesome VTEC is i think it’s stupid it’s clearly slower when matched against a non-vtec engine of the same horsepower.
i know that in reality all of Honda’s best engine’s are VTEC, so in that way it does rule. IMO VTEC does not rule at all, and was only inveted for fuel efficiency and smoother idles, it definately was not invented with performance in mind. just imagine if they made a 190hp non-vtec engine, it would absolutely rape a b18c Type-R. [/B]
You again huh? Seems that since the last time we “talked” you still haven’t learned anything. You still stuck in la la land thinking your stock auto will smoke everything? Here, let me help you out. I will try to be as simple as possible so HOPEFULLY you can get a clue this time, although I doubt it will help.
First off, Vtec WAS designed for performance and NOT for fuel economy. It was later adapted to function as an “economy” idea, but its original introduction on the B16A was for pure performance. All DOHC Vtec engines have Vtec on both the intake and the exhaust valves, allowing for more lift and a longer durration. Why not just put this on the “primary lobes” you ask? Well becuase doing so would produce a car with very poor low end, a shitty idle, and poor fuel economy. These are all side effects to running an aggressive cam on a street engine. This is where Vtec comes into play. You get the advantage of the “aggressive” cam along with the ability to still retain mileage, idle, and low end. Starting to see the idea now?
The SOHC engines adopted Vtec and used it to slightly increase performance but also maintain mileage. The technology used in these engines is geared more towards fuel economy as you mentioned, but please remember this is not where the idea of Vtec came into play. The “intake only” technology is mainly to reduce the cost of producing the engine and the car, as well as still appeal to the average consumer. No one wants a Civic Ex that gets 13mpg, but they also would like it to at least have SOME ability to keep up with traffic. Now you have Vtec explained to you in a simple manner (I could go into more detail about Vtec-e, three stage Vtec, etc) and hopefully you see where you were wrong with your statement about its intentions.
Now. Assuming a dead start with two cars, horsepower DOES NOT accelerate the car. Torque is what gets the damn thing up and going. Plain and simple. So your arguement about the car with more HP winning is not entirely true. Once you factor in gearing and vehicle speed, then horsepower begins to take over. Remember. Torque is the amount of work and engine can do, horsepower is a measurement to show how efficiently that engine can sustain the work. In simple terms its like this. B18 can do more work then a B16, but the B16 can do its work for a longer period of time. With this in mind, assuming the same gearing, the B18 would start strong, but would soon "run out of steam’ while the B16 could continue on with little trouble. Might sound alittle corny, but we are trying to be simple here.
Something else I just have to add. Look at a conventional (non-vtec) engine dyno, then look at a Vtec dyno. See how the torque curve drops off quickly after peak on the conventional engine? See how it keeps on climbing or levels out on the Vtec engine? This is where your advantage is. A car will accelerate strongest at its peak torque rpm, period. Anything after that and it begins to fall. This is where the statement that I have been saying all along comes into play. Its better to make torque at high RPM so you can take advantage of gearing. While you are screaming along in your B18 @ 7,000rpms and shifting, I am passing you up with another 1,000rpms to go AND my car is STILL making power. Your B18 just fell on its face while my B16 is still going along its merry way with no complaints. This is why a GSR doesn’t FEEL quicker then an LS, but in reality it is. Plain and simple, it pulls longer.
When you say the non Vtec will rape the Vtec engine given the same hp I would have to say no. The non vtec engine would not rape the Vtec engine becuase our buddy with the vtec still has the advantage of gearing. Also, consider this: The non vtec engine would need to use things such as higher compression, wild cams, etc. It would most likley suffer from lack of low end power and poor idle as a result. You just robbed its low end so you could add some top end. Great and all, but your also narrowed your powerband. So while your non vtec engine might put more to the ground, it does so for a very brief time, which is where the Vtec engine has its advantage. Again, this is assuming engines of the same size. You can’t really compare a 2.0l to a 1.6l, see my point?
Does this clear it up for you?