The Challenge: V-tec Killer

Re: what would you do

Originally posted by FAST_Mercenary
[B]what would you do??? ive got a 1990 ‘Teg’ with a b18a i want reliability but i want to decimate all and i dont want to have to worry about a smog problem with a b16. would you go ls vtec turbo which would put me way over type-r status even if the type r had a turbo but i want reliablity. or would you build up your b18a with crower top end and type r pistons and turbo it let me know im curious, thanx bro …

Fast Mercenary

long live the the DA integra and may those who oppose it see it from behind. [/B]

You answered your own question. If you want reliability then you do NOT want any type of Ls/Vtec, B20/Vtec setup. Get your self a B16 out of a USDM 90+ car and your **** will smog without any trouble. There you have a nice rod/stroke ratio and good reliability. There is a large aftermarket for the B16 making it VERY easy to get your ‘teg’ to “decimate all”. Just remember that there is always someone else out there who will wipe the streets with you. You’re going to need to spend lots of money if you want to kill eveyone and anything. Ask yourself this, what does it get you in the end?

:werd:

first of all I drive a standard, so what are you talkin about??

all i said was VTEC is way overrated, I waste ex’s that have 127hp, why? cause it’s a VTEC 127hp, do you see what I mean?

I’ve raced a few of the newer civic SI’s, they’re lighter and have 30+ horsepower, the SI is definately faster, but not alot. Not the difference I’d expect with a car that’s 200lbs lighter with a 30hp advantage.

As far as killing your low-end, when I race the only low-end I see is 1st gear, then it’s high end the whole way.

Maybe you’re right about why it VTEC was created, but if you look at what it actually does, it doesn’t make your car any faster, what it does is improves your mileage by only giving you your full power in a certain rpm range.

and I don’t understand what the tranny has to do with anything. Because Honda puts on a shorter geared tranny in their VTEC’s that makes the engine technology better or faster? That was honda’s decision, to be fair you’d have say that both engine’s type’s had identical trannies.

the only good thing about VTEC is the transmission, and valve cover.

just curious, what are you putting down at the wheels to go 15.1? and what does your SI weigh?

I know that a Teg with full interior putting down around 155whp would hit about 15.0-15.2. what’s your whp and weight?

Ok, lets get the ruler and put em’ on the table. This is one of those arguments that may never be solved. Scooby, I agree that VTEC is overrated, but it is definitely not worthless. All of these scenarios really come down to 2 things, vehicle setup & driving style. I dont care how much HP/Torque you have, if you can’t drive Im gonna eat you alive. You cant argue with facts, and SiCivic has obviously done his homework. I will compliment you on your car though, looks just like mine.

Originally posted by scooby_dooby
[B]just curious, what are you putting down at the wheels to go 15.1? and what does your SI weigh?

I know that a Teg with full interior putting down around 155whp would hit about 15.0-15.2. what’s your whp and weight? [/B]

I have never dynoed the car. It was 2540lbs without me in it at the local track with 3/4 tank of gas. The 15.1 second pass was done with an AEM intake and DC 4-1 header. The header has shown 4hp CRANK gains, the intake seems to show about 8whp gains over stock. This said I would say I have picked up maybe 10whp over stock putting me somewhere around 145-150whp. Please keep in mind this is a rough estimate and is most likely no where near accurate.

Originally posted by scooby_dooby
[B]first of all I drive a standard, so what are you talkin about??

all i said was VTEC is way overrated, I waste ex’s that have 127hp, why? cause it’s a VTEC 127hp, do you see what I mean?

I’ve raced a few of the newer civic SI’s, they’re lighter and have 30+ horsepower, the SI is definately faster, but not alot. Not the difference I’d expect with a car that’s 200lbs lighter with a 30hp advantage.

As far as killing your low-end, when I race the only low-end I see is 1st gear, then it’s high end the whole way.

Maybe you’re right about why it VTEC was created, but if you look at what it actually does, it doesn’t make your car any faster, what it does is improves your mileage by only giving you your full power in a certain rpm range.

and I don’t understand what the tranny has to do with anything. Because Honda puts on a shorter geared tranny in their VTEC’s that makes the engine technology better or faster? That was honda’s decision, to be fair you’d have say that both engine’s type’s had identical trannies.

the only good thing about VTEC is the transmission, and valve cover. [/B]

You missed the point if you don’t see the advantage in gearing… You can put shorter gears in the transmission on the Vtec engine because you have additional rpm to work with. What do shorter gears do for you? Well, you multiply torque through gearing. What does this mean? In a nutshell, more power to the wheels. Saying that Vtec doesn’t make your car any faster is a complete and total false statement. Did you not read the part of my previous message that states that it gives you a broader powerband, more of a “flat” torque curve if you will? Remember, its not always about how much you put to the ground. While this does have an impact on a cars acceleration its also equally important how long you can sustain the power to the wheels. Wouldn’t do me much good if I made 500ftlbs of torque for 10rpms, now would it?

You are comparing your car to a Civic Ex. I already reviewed with you the idea behind the “Vtec” in the SOHC engines. Its not really there to make mad power or anything. Its there to give the car a small edge over the lower models while still maintaining a good amount of economy. Its like a balance of the two. Does this mean that ALL Vtec engines are designed with this in mind? Certainly not. You can’t compare apples to oranges, and this is exactly what you are doing.

When you say you raced the “newer” Si’s, are you talking about the 99-00 or the 2002+ Si’s? Seen as how both have completely different engines. I certainly hope you aren’t talking about the 2002+ Si’s as those are everything but lighter then your car. Please clarify as I have more for you. I just don’t want to ramble on about something unreleated to our discussion. Keep this in mind:

2002+ Si : 2744lbs
Your 90 GS: 2606lbs
1999-00 Si: 2612lbs

I don’t know where you get this “200lbs” lighter garbage. Kinda changes the whole arguement now about the Vtec engine not being “that” much quicker doesn’t it? Remember, the 99-00 Si makes a good amount less torque then the Gs does. Trust me, I know. I drive em both. The GS pulls harder then the Si (keep in mind its decently modded) but the Si would still hand the GS its ass in the 1/4 mile and anything beyond. In fact, I would say the GS would only MAYBE have a chance from 0-60 (again keep in mind the GS has a decent amount of mods on it).

Originally posted by redrain35
Ok, lets get the ruler and put em’ on the table. This is one of those arguments that may never be solved. Scooby, I agree that VTEC is overrated, but it is definitely not worthless. All of these scenarios really come down to 2 things, vehicle setup & driving style. I dont care how much HP/Torque you have, if you can’t drive Im gonna eat you alive. You cant argue with facts, and SiCivic has obviously done his homework. I will compliment you on your car though, looks just like mine.

Thats just it. There is no arguing here. You can’t really argue with the facts. I am not trying to argue or be a dick (well maybe a little bit of a dick), I am just trying to clear up some of the misconceptions that seem to hover in this place.

Question for SiCivic99

I know this is the wrong forum but I have a question 4 U.
Ive been trying to find a cat-back for my 91 RS Sedan but I am having no luck. E-mail me if you have any advice

Re: Question for SiCivic99

Originally posted by redrain35
I know this is the wrong forum but I have a question 4 U.
Ive been trying to find a cat-back for my 91 RS Sedan but I am having no luck. E-mail me if you have any advice

sorry: redrain35@hotmail.com

Thanx

no VTEC is definately not useless, Honda did it for a reason, It just bugs me when people make it out to be such a great thing, it’s really not all it’s cracked up to be.

For the tranny, a shorter geared tranny will increase your acceleration but give you a lower top-speed, generally speaking, putting a VTEC tranny on an LS would make a huge difference in the 1/4.

I’m talking about the 2000 or earlier SI’s, I though they were about 2450lb’s but according to edmunds it’s 2601, so I’m wrong there.

about the cat-back, I just ran a 2 1/4" straight pipe off my manifold, I have no cat. We don’t have to pass any emmissions laws up here!

Originally posted by scooby_dooby
[B]no VTEC is definately not useless, Honda did it for a reason, It just bugs me when people make it out to be such a great thing, it’s really not all it’s cracked up to be.

For the tranny, a shorter geared tranny will increase your acceleration but give you a lower top-speed, generally speaking, putting a VTEC tranny on an LS would make a huge difference in the 1/4.

I’m talking about the 2000 or earlier SI’s, I though they were about 2450lb’s but according to edmunds it’s 2601, so I’m wrong there.

about the cat-back, I just ran a 2 1/4" straight pipe off my manifold, I have no cat. We don’t have to pass any emmissions laws up here! [/B]

If you were to compare a shorter geared tranny to a longer geared tranny on the same engine, then yes, it will decrease your top speed. Remember. You are comparing non vtec engines to vtec engines. That said, my top speed is no less that yours, in fact its higher. Not only does my car produce more horsepower needed for top speed but I still have an additional 1,000+ rpms to work with. See my point?

I could only wish my car was that light. They are not. They are actually a little on the heavy side for a coupe. Now as to why your car is not “that” much slower then the Si… Look at it this way. The GS is rated at 16.7 stock, the Si is rated at 15.7 stock. Thats a 1 second difference over a period of a 1/4 mile. 0-60 runs really show the advantage to the Si with the teg rated at 8.9 and the Si rated at 7.2. I don’t know how you look at it, but thats a BIG difference. I have intake/header/exhaust/clutch/chip and a 92 ls intake cam on my GS. I would say it MIGHT, repeat MIGHT keep up with a stock Si 0-60. There is no way in the hell the top end of that car will match that of the Si’s. If you are “barely” losing to 2000 Sis then you may be racing a shitty driver. My friend ran 16.3 in his 2000 Si with i/h/e while I was making passes of 15.5 with only intake on the same track/same day. Driver plays a very important role in racing. Remember that. Go run your car at the track in its current form. I am willing to bet that you don’t come near the 15.7 stock time, or close to the 88mph traps of a stock Si. I would take my GS to the track on the 8th when I am going, but I don’t want to pay for two cars. That and I need a driver.

Your arguments , Scooby and SI, have both been about non forced induction cars. A turbo or NO2 wood change everything. And if fast times are what your after then a turbo or a bottle or blower wood have to be added. And that can change the agrument.

Originally posted by fastacuralover
Your arguments , Scooby and SI, have both been about non forced induction cars. A turbo or NO2 wood change everything. And if fast times are what your after then a turbo or a bottle or blower wood have to be added. And that can change the agrument.

I think that’s the whole point of the arguement. Everything changes the outcome, EVERYTHING.

Originally posted by fastacuralover
Your arguments , Scooby and SI, have both been about non forced induction cars. A turbo or NO2 wood change everything. And if fast times are what your after then a turbo or a bottle or blower wood have to be added. And that can change the agrument.

I think it was very clear what our “arguments” were about. So I should say I THOUGHT it was clear till I saw your response. Gearing, power curve, etc. will still come into play when you add turbo, nitrous, or a supercharger. You cannot argue with facts.

Originally posted by redrain35
I think that’s the whole point of the arguement. Everything changes the outcome, EVERYTHING.

Incorrect. I am saying that:

  1. Vtec is not for fuel economy
  2. There is more to it then just hp and torque
  3. The non vtec 190hp engine suffers some serious drawbacks
  4. Its not only how much power you make, but how efficiently you can make the power

Originally posted by SiCivic99
[B]Incorrect. I am saying that:

  1. Vtec is not for fuel economy
  2. There is more to it then just hp and torque
  3. The non vtec 190hp engine suffers some serious drawbacks
  4. Its not only how much power you make, but how efficiently you can make the power [/B]

I understand your point, and I couldn’t agree more. My point is,
that when you start talking about mods there comes a point that, because of the differences in internal dynamics between VTEC & non-VTEC, we are essentially discussing “apples and oranges”.

Originally posted by redrain35
Ok, let me ask you this. Which one would win if they were both bone stock & fresh off the showroom floor? The VTEC right? Well thats my point, if both are comparably tuned (ie: same intake, exhaust, header, etc.) then the VTEC should still have the edge. When you start talking about replacing things like cams, ignition systems, and making timing adjustments, you are then comparing apples to oranges and the term “comparably tuned” can no longer be used. You may as well ask, “Turbo or non-turbo?” I agree that VTEC has its advantages, but so does N/A.

Originally posted by redrain35
I understand your point, and I couldn’t agree more. My point is,
that when you start talking about mods there comes a point that, because of the differences in internal dynamics between VTEC & non-VTEC, we are essentially discussing “apples and oranges”.

Point taken.

Let me just say that it is very refreshing to know that there are actually people out there who know what they are talking about.
This is by far the most informed, intelligent, and enlightening discussion I’ve ever had regarding this matter. It is great to see that not everyone is in it simply to achieve “Sport Compact Coolness”. Also, to SiCivic99, everybody should pay attention to this guy. I think he works for Honda, lol.

Thanks Guys