^ Holy thread-jack of the year… Its not even Colins thread lol. But I did a 10second search that turned up the results you’re looking for:
http://forums.g2ic.com/showthread.php?137294-B17-all-motor-builds-please-post-your-builds&p=2145804&viewfull=1#post2145804
…
unified, your explanation of the hose routing is clear.
So I think I’ll want to pick up a later thermostat housing without that third nipple.
19320-P2T-000 - $36 from a 00 Civic SI
19320-P30-J00 - $38 from 01 ITR/GSR/LS Integra
19320-P30-J00 - $36 from 97 Del Sol VTEC
The Del Sol picture shows it as having that third nipple, but obviously, if it is the same part number as the Integras, it doesn’t have it.
Well, you could actually use the thermostat housing that has the third nipple on it… And just run a rubber hose from the IM to the housing.
Even though the big cooling outlet on the IM goes to the Thermostat Housing already, it wouldn’t hurt to do the same with the smaller two outlets. This way you dont have to cap-off the nipple on the manifold, and it would save you $40 lol.
Bah. $40. If I wanted to save money, I’d take this damn B17 to the recyclers and put in a call to Hmotors…
Uh. Ok, I don’t think your stuff is routed correctly. That second outlet (inlet?) on the IM connects to the Throttle body…
Check it out (ITR diagrams):
I think the Outflow of the FITV actually goes to part #10 (This is the GSR picture) which I need to buy off the ITR
19315-P30-J01 - $14.
I just went to peek at my bone stock '96 Integra to see how it has stuff routed, and is as follows:
From Part# 15 to the IACV.
From the IACV to the bottom of the Throttle Body.
From the Throttle Body to Part# 10 (Cylinder Head Water Inlet?)
My Integra does NOT have the smaller nipple coming off the intake manifold, nor does it have the smaller third nipple on the Thermostat Housing. But if both of those nipples were present, they would be on a car that has the FIT Valve, and they’d loop through that.
In summary, if you’re Intake Manifold has the extra smaller nipple, you need to have the Cylinder Head Water Inlet (#10) WITHOUT the nipple. At least that’s what Im understanding from This Thread
I think there are a few different ways these motors are setup, and piecing together a motor with many different parts, I think its just one of those things we run into lol. Whether its ran to the Intake Manifold or the Cylinder Head Water Inlet, I think the result is going to be the same… But the way its ran on my '96 (And also this is the same routing on my lsvtec build) should be correct, as its stock.
Lol. Wacky. I think you are 100% correct: It looks like the Del Sol VTEC and the ITR both use the nipple on the IM and the later GSR and 99-00 Civic SI both use the nipple on part #10 on the head. So weird.
Since I’m using the ITR intake manifold, I’ll want to just route things like they were stock on the ITR and on my B17 and then I’ll just buy those two parts from the ITR (thermostat housing and water inlet on head) to completely “delete” the entire FITV water circuit.
Good stuff. Thanks!
No worries… things like that drive me nuts, and I never really looked into it. Now that I know the situation, I want the Cylinder Head Water Inlet that doesn’t have the nipple, so I can route from TB to I’M & as you say, delete the entire FITV circuit.
Your build sounds like it’ll be pretty damn stout! Now hurry up & get it done!!! Cheers!
Yeah, tell me about it. I’ve got a long list of shit I need to buy after the holidays.
Valve springs/retainers/cams
All the coolant hoses we just talked about
Gasket sets
Thermo and head housings we just discussed
New breather canister & other PCV related hoses
Those prelude injectors so I can send them to RC
Itr throttle cable & bracket
New oem switches and sensors
Pistons/rings/wristpins/bearings after the block gets back from the machinist.
Flywheel/clutch/throwout bearing.
And that’s just for the engine. I also need to get an ES kit and ITR rear sway for the suspension.
They’re stock ITR valvesprings. As for what power you’ll make, I really don’t know. But make sure to take into account that my dyno plot is from a dynapack, they read much higher than something like a dynojet. If those are your mods then you may have similar power to me however:
- having the stock compression ratio will cause a big difference in power compared to my motor
- your header may be a bottleneck as well depending on the design
- I have a sneaking suspicion that my cat and cat placement helped me make decent power
I’ve been gone and I’m just now catching up on this thread. Did you get all your vacuum and coolant routing figured out? This is something I spent a LOT of time dealing with because I wanted it perfect. I’m still not 100% done as I still need to swap in my 00 Si thermostat housing I bought awhile back, I’m just too lazy to drain the coolant and deal w/ the mess. I’ve got photos showing most of my vacuum and coolant routing as well as some of the custom stuff I did to make it look stock but work w/ a combo if P61 and P73 parts.
Sorry for the brief response, but I just got home after a 15hr day of work, life’s gonna be busy till I leave for vacation early Friday morning. But feel free to let me know if there’s anything specific I can help with or any pics you might want.
I think I’ve got it all figured out as far as the actual coolant hose routing goes but I won’t know for sure until I look at my block again. Right now I am pretty sure that the FITV returns(ed) to the water outlet fitting on the head, but I’m not positive. That hose in the Helms diagram just kind of goes no where. If it does end up there, I know exactly how I need to route things and which parts I need to buy to “delete” the FITV circuit.
What we figured out is that the Del Sol VTEC and the ITR do it one way, but the 00 Civic SI does it a different way. But since the Civic SI only has one water outlet on the Intake manifold, the ITR/Del Sol way is the only way to do it with the B17 and ITR manifold. I think, to completely “delete” the FITV water circuit, you need both a Del Sol/ITR/Civic SI thermostat housing and a Del Sol/ITR water outlet.
I think the actual routing for the vacuum stuff is pretty straight forward but would like to hear which parts you used, in particular what parts you used for the PCV system. But again, a lot of this I’ll be able to figure out if I ever go look at the car since I can figure out how different the position of the ITR stuff on the manifold is by comparing it in relation to the stock B17 intake manifold.
But none of this is pressing, just trying to hash it out. I will be buying most of this stuff in the middle of January and will want your input on a few things before then though.
What I should really be doing right now is calling shops and figuring out where I’m going to send the block and head instead of debating which IACV inlet hose I should be using, but I hate the telephone and have been putting that stuff off…
[QUOTE=buymysoul;2189046]
What I should really be doing right now is calling shops and figuring out where I’m going to send the block and head instead of debating which IACV inlet hose I should be using, but I hate the telephone and have been putting that stuff off…[/QUOTE]
This made me chuckle…
As far as the PCV routing, that should be pretty straight forward…
Black Breather Box (in back of block) has two outlets… One of them is a vaccum line that simply goes back to the block. The other hose goes to the bottom of the PCV valve (that is seated on the Intake Manifold), and from the top of the PCV to the fitting on the Intake Manifold (right above the runners)… Basically like in the picture you posted.
The stock B17 stuff should work fine.
I used one of the coolant nipples on the upper water neck as a place for my coolant temp sensor.
You can see the original nipple in this pic. I pulled it out and tapped the hole w/ the same thread pitch that my sensor required
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Pic w/ the Autometer sensor installed
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Here you can see the outer half of the thermostat housing. In this pic the small coolant nipple has already been removed but is sitting right next to the hole it came out of.
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I made an aluminum plug to fill this hole because I didn’t want a rubber cap or even a threaded plug.
Aluminum plug installed and sanded smooth
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Unfortunately this leaked ever so slightly, such a small hole it was probably literally single molecules escaping. Never noticed any significant amount leak out, only a tiny tiny droplet. I put a dab of Hondabond on there and it sealed it up. It was after this that I did as you have and studied the parts catalogs and found out about the 00 Si outer thermostat housing. Even if mine hadn’t leaked I would have bought the new housing because it looks better.
THIS photoset shows the differences between a P61 manifold and a P73. However it should be noted that US and JDM manifolds are different. Likewise US and JDM ITR TB’s are also different. I forget off the top of my head which I have or what the exact differences are.
On my manifold there was an EVAP port near the IACV. I’m pretty sure this port connects to the EVAP purge solenoid on ITR’s. The ITR uses a larger diameter hose for this (as seen below) whereas the P61 EVAP purge solenoid uses a smaller vacuum hose.
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Here’s after I removed it and plugged it w/ aluminum
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So after plugging that hole I still needed a vacuum port for my EVAP purge solenoid. So, I drilled a hole and made a new one in the same location (approx) as on a P61 manifold.
Before:
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After:
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The PCV hose visible on top of the manifold is slightly different on the ITR manifold, so make sure you order that part instead of a P61 part. I think you can use the P61 hose but it looks uglier and might not fit as well. I think the hoses under the manifold are the same, but I can’t remember now what I used.
You said you don’t remember if you have a JDM manifold or not Colin? On my Type-R manifold there was no outlet above the IACV, mine has the smaller outlet for the Purge Valve that the P61/P30 manifolds have. As you said, it must be a JDM/USDM difference. Odd.
On a side note, how did you plug those holes with aluminum? Looks very clean.
Yeah, it’s a US/JDM thing, just different EVAP systems. The difference on the TB is that one has the nipple on the top and one doesn’t (the same nipple as the one on the stock TB which connects to the red braided hose which runs to the EVAP canister).
As for the aluminum plugs… I just measured the hole then turned a piece of aluminum on a lathe so that it was slightly tapered (just barely) and for the most part, larger in dia than the hole it was going into (just barely). Then the aluminum plug went in the freezer. After it’s had some time to cool (not long since its aluminum) I would heat the part I was plugging w/ a torch, once it was nice and warm I dropped the cold plug into the hole and tapped it in as far as possible w/ a hammer. It was the first time I’d tried this technique but my father had used it for a project he’d work on before. For the most part it worked fine but the process could have used a little fine tuning.
Colin,
That is very cool stuff, thanks for sharing! I really like the idea for the coolant pickup in that water neck, too. I’ll have to steal that.
Last night I was looking at a B18A1 manifold I had lying around and there is a plug on the back which makes me wonder if Honda used a similar method to plug holes back in the day. You could see where the diameter of the cast hole was, but then inside of that was aluminum that had marks on it (like someone had gotten it molten and then pressed on it with something). I wonder if that is how you would avoid getting the ever so tiny leaks that you had on the thermostat housing. Heat it up with a torch until it is pliable and then squish it down…? If the plug was a soft alloy, it should be possible to do that without messing up the cast.
As far as the PVC stuff, I’ll just use the B17 parts except for the top hose. I can’t remember now if the Intake Manifold I got earlier is a JDM one or a USDM one. I set it under the work bench when I bought it and haven’t looked at it since but I seem to remember the small nipple on the back, so it is probably a JDM one.
The thread that linked to this picture said the one on the right was USDM. I guess the plenum looks smaller because it is shiny?
As usual, thanks for the input guys!
When I did my plugs the hammer method was part of what I used to try and get the plug to “spread” out and really seal the hole really well. But that’s a good point, a softer alloy would be helpful. I also put some threadlocker type product on the plug on the back of my manifold to ensure it was a tight seal.
As for that pic, I think there’s more going on than just one manifold being shiny. Not sure if it’s the angle or that one manifold is actually higher up but everything on the left manifold looks larger, not just the plenums. Look at random bolt holes, nipples…etc, everything looks ever so slightly larger on that one. I’d assume the two are the same in regard to plenum sizes and volumes…
Good call on there being something else going on in that picture. I didn’t really notice it the first time I looked at it.
Hope you guys all had a good holidays. It was pitifully warm down in TX, as usual.
I sure am hoping the deal with the RS*R comes though. It will be kinda cool to have some (sort of) OG stuff on the car to go with those Toda gears.
I picked up some 97+ Prelude injectors (290cc) before the holidays that I can send off to RC. As I mentioned in the build list on page 5, they aren’t necessary but will allow a little more overhead in the duty cycle under certain conditions.
Any opinion of King Motorsports as far as engine building goes? I’m thinking tentatively of maybe just seeing about them doing the whole build since I can get them to build the engine, break it in, tune it all right there. I dunno. I think they are probably a little more expensive than I need for bottom end work but I need to run the figures.
Found a Toda Version 1 exhaust for only a few $ more than the replica. Pretty stoked about that. Going to talk with Dave at SMSP and see if I can order up the parts I need.
Colin, you ended up getting a different flange to mate up to your ITR 4-1 replica, rather than use the one Dave had available, right? Do you happen to know how long the cat and pipe you used ended up being?
What are you guys doing for engine management? Just chips, right? Did you just get a basemap from a tuner and then go to the dyno? What about partial throttle stuff?
I’m thinking about Hondata S300 in this spare P61 I have and hardwiring in a wideband to try to do my own street tuning to minimize the amount of time I spend at the dyno and to maximize the use of the tuner.
Do you guy know anything about PLX gauges? The gauges themselves look kinda whatever, but I’m curious about their electronics. The really cool thing is that all the modules send out a standard (defined) serial protocol so I can interpret that data with a PIC or something like that and make idiot lights for myself and cool stuff like that. I thought one thing that might be fun is to hack the clock to show oil pressure or something silly.
With cat length you’re definitely gonna need to install the exhaust system and header, and take some measurements… A 1/4 if an inch diffference between Colins setup and yours could be trouble if you simply made yours the same length as his… Though I’m sure you had planned to do it the proper way, I’m just makin sure lol. On a side note, mine ended up being 21" & 7/10ths, from end to end, including flanges. It was a long SOB.
On to your question about tuning… I’m running a basemap from my local tuner, using the Neptune software. He runs Neptune on his own drag car, stock honda ignition etc and will be breaking into the 8s this summer. I belive the Neptune software is enough to run a simple NA build like mine. Their TunerView unit is awesome as well… but the issue is finding someone who is an authorized dealer in your area.
Basically I’m just using the basemap for engine break-in (100miles driven already, w00t!) But once spring comes, and I have the dough, I’ll be hitting the dyno. But as is, I have a two-step launch control, that is active at any RPM over 3500… unlike a Xenocron or ebay chip that is programmed to be active at one set RPM. I have Vtec crossover at only 90%+ throttle (of course, it has to be above the 5,000rpm threshold as well), so you can cruise on the highway/5k+ and not be riding in vtec… it only engages when you floor it. This also has full-throttle shifting, not that id use it, but still… and an 8,200rpm CEL-shiftlight, datalogging, etc.
Not to take away from Hondata at all, it is a great system… but Neptune will do most all of the same stuff, and doesn’t require the user to buy a separate ecu/box.
edit
As far as the gauges… I’ve read good things about PLX, but have no personal experience. The only extra gague I’m running is an AutoMeter ‘Ghost Series’ oil pressure unit. I’m not horribly concerned about most anything else. My factory temp sensor works fine, so as long as its not over heating or losing oil pressure, I’m not worried. But I’ve contemplated running that TunerView with a few extra sensors… but I hate trying to find somewhere to mount stuff lol… my AutoMeter has still yet to be mounted… its simply dangling near the steering wheel lol.