Uh, yeah. Sure. I was going to do it the proper way, I promise.
My feeling was that exhaust, header and testpipe companies all make stuff without having the exact car there. Although I guess since the header Colin is running is a knock-off it might not be the exact length as a real ITR 4-1. But yeah, as usual, you are probably right about just doing it the “right way”. I was just hoping to be able to minimize delay between the time the engine goes in the car and the time I can drive it without blowing out my eardrums, lol.
I think I am going to get King to do my dyno tuning and I actually just found the page where they list what they tune with and they don’t list Chrome or Neptune so I guess I’m stuck with either the S300 or AEM EMS (most of the rest of what they list are just piggyback systems). But it sounds like what you have set up there is a lot of what I am looking for. I like the VTEC only above 90% throttle thing.
The AEM EMS II is like $1200 or some shit and just came out. There were serious issues with the EMS I so I doubt I’ll be going that route. The S300 is nice because it actually fits inside the ECU. It isn’t a piggyback like their earlier systems and you can literally do on the fly changes.
That TunerView II is sweet! That is exactly the kind of thing I would want to put together but at a lot less than what it would cost for me to do. Interfaces directly with a S300 and has a bracket for mounting it in a DIN location. Very cool. And you can set up user defined warnings too. I am totally getting one of those. The S300 can accept a couple extra analog inputs so I can just use the PLX oil pressure sender/electronics and plug them into the S300 and then monitor it on that baby. Actually, I don’t even need something as fancy as the PLX since I won’t be programing it myself. Any sender that I know the equation for will work.
How did you tap into your oil pressure? Sandwich filter or did you use the idiot light spot on the block?
I could probably get under the car this weekend and measure the cat, but I don’t have the numbers written down anywhere. While I’ve found this stuff to be much less critical than you might think (being off by a little bit doesn’t do much, that slack is easy to take up usually). I also get this feeling like the RSR’s fit strange, or maybe it’s just mine. But originally I didn’t like how it fit. It stuck out too long and had some rubbing issues. So, instead of using a 92-93 extension + 92-93 cat I simply only used a 90-91 cat w/ no extension and found that length to be more suitable. It’s nice to have the opportunity to hang the exhaust and make sure it sits how you like, then make the cat custom.
I’m running on Crome, originally I was going to use Hondata but a Crome ecu fell into my hands for nearly nothing so I used it. I forget now if I used the stock P61 or a chipped P30 for my break-in. The chipped (Crome) P30 had been tuned for a friend’s motor that was nearly identical to mine except higher compression.
I’m not up to speed on the PLX gauges, I’m just running an electrical water temp and mechanical oil pressure (from a sandwich plate) - both gauges are autometer Phantom. It would be really cool to have something like a Tunerview though. The more and more I think about it I’d really like to gut my stock gauge cluster and do something similar to this. Not a perfect example, but maybe a digital tach (or something like a Tunerview). This isn’t something I’d ever think I would have thought was a good idea, but it would be a huge upgrade for the track and if done right something I could deal with as far as it not being “oem”.
Sorry for the short response, and I just realized I never got back to you after your last email… Feel free to bug me about getting that exhaust shipped off to you, lol.
AEM EMS is a good system as well, but to HELL with paying that much for a system… I absolutely refuse. The S300 is definitely the wiser route to take.
But yes, instead of tapping into the sandwich plate, I ran my gauge from the ‘dummy light’ - Pressure Sending Unit location on the block. Being that the light comes on at like 7 or 9psi, I figure by that time, the motor is toast anyway… no need to still have it installed when running an actual gauge.
Colin, if you could grab me a measurement of your setup the next time you are under your car for some other reason, that’d be great, but there is no reason to get under there just for that. I don’t even have my exhaust, after all.
If I end up getting Kingmotorsports to build my engine, I’m considering taking advantage of their $200 dyno break-in. Considering how damn expensive everything else they would do would be, that seems pretty reasonable and like cheap peace of mind as far as the rings being properly seated and whatnot. I imagine with the stock P61 basemap and an hour or so of tuning from them, I could get a pretty solid starting point for fine-tuning it myself and then once I’m happy with what I’ve got I can drive the actual car up to where they are for a final tune.
The PLX gauges are cool from a geek standpoint mainly because they take whatever the actual sender is giving them and then convert it into a linear 0-5V signal as well as spitting out the actual measurement in a normal (non-proprietary) serial format. Now maybe other “linked” gauge systems don’t have fancy serial protocols but if so they don’t advertise it that way.
I’ve seen that Defi gauge assembly before. Pretty close to being very sweet. On a side note, if you need/want a spare gauge housing, I have a JDM one (YO!) that I got when I had my LSS that I only want the tack and some of the icons from.
Yeah, the AEM was maybe at an OK price like 5 years ago when it was 1. cheaper and 2. wasn’t that much more than a Hondata system + ECU and 3. Before people realized there was a bug that could destroy a turbo car. But to pay that now is just asinine.
Don’t knock that oil light. I used to have a really bad habit about actually going back and double-checking bolts and had the oil drain plug fall out on me one day after doing an oil change on my LSS (this was years and years ago). That light came on and I was like “huh, that’s odd. I’ll have to check that out when I get home.” I drove about 2 more miles home and there was absolutely no oil in the engine. I didn’t realize how low the oil pressure had to be before that light came on. That engine was fine until the water pump seized up on me about 3 years later (did I mention that car taught me a lot of lessons?).
I’m not sure how you installed your oil pressure sender unified, but Larry raises some interesting concerns about doing it this particular way and has a decent solution. Colin, have you had any issues with that sandwich adapter?
Hah, I’m not knocking thedummy light, per-say… Just saying that once you install an oil pressure gauge, the light is prettymuch redundant. that’s my take on it anyways.
As far as how I tied into it, I did not run a T-fitting (as I didn’t install the oil pressure sending unit)… I put a double-ended male fitting (threads on both ends)… One end threaded into the block, and the other end is where I connected my braided-steel oil line that goes straight to my gauge. I’ve also read about running t-fittings straight from the block being bad news.
On my setup, leaving enough slack between the firewall-grommet and the block ensures that there is plenty of room for the motor to ‘rock’ without tugging or causing excess pressure on that fitting. And if there is any tugging, it will be pulling straight back, putting pressure on the threads of my fittings, not an up/down pressure that would cause breakage.
I was going to tie into the sandwich plate, but I didn’t see there being an issue with the way I did it. So the only feed coming off of my sammich plate is the line that feeds oil to the head for the vtec system… I’m sure the oil-pump is strong enough to run multiple feeds from the sandwich plate, but it gives me peace of mind to have a dedicated oil feed to the head. Probably not much of a difference, if any, but it makes ME feel better
My engine builder actually advised against using that 1/8th inch nylon tubing that comes with the gauges as it can make your oil pressure read a tad higher than it actually is, but Endyn also has a point of keeping pressure off of the block in that area…
I believe I’m running a 1/4 inch braided steel line. Have had no leakage issues so far, and hopefully that continues to be the case.
I’ll try to remember to grab a length next time I’m under there.
$200 seems hefty for a break in, if they’re gonna charge that much I’d want some sort of confirmation on what they will do and that it’s more significant than what they’d do for an initial tune on a rebuilt engine. But on the flipside I completely understand being nervous about the break-in issue, it definitely had me losing sleep, lol.
Personally I’m a huge fan of the oil pressure warning light. Moreso in concept than in the actual one we have on our cars though as the light goes on when your pressure is really low, but it’s still much better than nothing. Normally when I’m driving I’m constantly checking all of my gauges, I’m a bit neurotic about it, so in that sense I agree w/ Unified that once you have a gauge it supplies much better info. On the contrary there are situations where you’re distracted and haven’t checked the gauge for awhile. And my main concern would be while on the track. I try to check my water temp and oil pressure once I hit a straight but I don’t always remember, especially if someone’s on my tail or I’m trying to make a pass on that straight. I feel the ideal situation would be to install your own switch and possibly even a different light. That way you can have it go off at whatever pressure you want and you can design the notification system (light) so that it’s most useful to you. But really that’s just getting anal, the stock one is fine for most of us - I know I don’t have any plans to change mine.
Turns out I have a pic of my adapter actually. This first pic is from 2007 when it was just mocked up on my block. In case you can’t read it in the pic, it’s an MFactory part:
As you can see, I had an oil leak problem. I’m only using 1 of the 3 ports on the adapter and the uppermost port leaked for quite awhile but i have since been able to stop that leak with some liquid teflon. Neither the lowermost port or the oil pressure gauge fitting ever leaked. I’m using -3AN fittings (brake line size) and braided line. I forget if they’re Earls or some other brand. But as you can see it’s a 90deg swivel fitting so that there’s no kink or bend in the line, it just points directly at the firewall. My original plan was to use a bulkhead fitting at the firewall, and I have the parts needed, but I just didn’t have time to do it before the engine went in and now it’d be too difficult to drill the necessary hole. I personally don’t like the Endyne method. I agree about the precautions which should be taken reguarding a T-fitting like that, but overall I think the setup is a bit messy looking. Sure, it’ll work just fine, it’s just not aesthetically pleasing and I can’t stand that thin tubing w/ it’s compression fittings, they’re not all that fun to use. At least w/ the AN hardware you get to attach all those parts at a workbench and then when you’re working on the car all you have to do is screw/unscrew and there aren’t worries of dropping a ferrule or anything of that sort.
That is a good point about ease of install. Although I’ll just be using an electric sender, so I won’t have to worry about the hose, just the wiring.
I hear you 100% on the idiot light, Colin. Actually, it is funny you mention it because I spent a lot of time yesterday trying to figure out how to do that exact thing with the Hondata or the TunerView software. The both can look at and display aux inputs to the ECU and both have warning systems, but nether of them allow you to have an external warning (the TunerView flashes, the S300 can control output pins on the ECU) for a user defined value. Pretty stupid. As someone who has done a fair amount of firmware and software development, I can tell you that there is no technological reason why they don’t have this ability. Only Engine Speed, “Engine Load”, Throttle position, vehicle speed, air temp or water temp can trigger external outputs.
I think there could be a lot of value to a user-defined oil pressure light. You could set it up so that the light was just barely on at idle and then, when you are racing if it comes on during or after turns or something then you would know that your oil pressure was dropping a little and maybe the baffle setup in your oil pan wasn’t working properly or you needed a larger capacity pan or a dry sump system or something.
As far as the dyno break in, here is the hype about it: “We will vary the load while under partial throttle and/or boost conditions to seat the rings while keeping air/fuel ratios at optimal levels. Several compression and leak down tests are preformed during the course of the break-in to ensure that the rings are seating properly.”
They talk about installing the engine in a shop vehicle if the customer’s isn’t available so if they charge extra for that (which they probably do) then I would just skip it.
Speaking of piece of mind. I have another subjective issue: There are 2 brand new B17A1 complete shortblocks left in the US. If you add up all the new parts I am planning for my build (bearings, rings, water pump, oil pump) it would be the same price to buy a new block vs. the block building/machine work that King has listed. Some other considerations are that 81mm JDM pistons are cheaper and easier to find than 81.25mm, I would have a complete spare block (which still may possibly have rod damage) but I would have to get the new pistons pressed on which would add to the cost.
if you can get a brand new b17 for close to the same price as building one id say go for it …only problem is the low stock compression ratio
if i could do it all over again i might have gone the b20v route because i probably could have made more power for less money but its great to say I HAVE A B17 and hear people go …what? are you sure its not a d17? i have only ever heard of b16’s b18’s and b20’s …
thats when i laugh and remember why i kept the 1.7
I will still put new pistons in it for sure. If I’m not going to at least do that, there is really no reason to upgrade everything else.
There is no situation where doing a cost/benefit analysis yields the result “mildly build a B17A1!” lol. I am sure some day I’ll see a ratty 92-93 RS for sale cheap and I’ll slap some crazy 280 HP 2.2L beast in there and strip out the interior but I just can’t molest this car like that. It has 125k miles on it, is Aztec Green Pearl and was purchased from the original owner and has never been modified it in any way. Even though I don’t really give a shit about GS-Rs or their rarity I still feel honor bound to keep the original spirit of this car intact.
I do still need to figure out how much prep needs to be done on a new Honda block though. If it still needs to be taken apart and lubricated and put back together than it might not be worth it. I guess I need to call King.
Hmm… that’s not a completely bad idea being that the oil clearances will all be dialed in, etc… but you’re still going to have oem main bolts, which I thought you were going to be upgrading on your built… as well as having to pay to get your pistons pressed and have the cylinders checked (making sure no honing needs done).
My main issues with that are:
-oem bearings: id rather have some coated/race bearings
-oem main studs: id rather have aftermarket ones installed
-low compression B17 pistons.
But for the most part, its not a horribly bad idea… I just dislike the idea of cracking open a brand new/sealed short block.
I know, but I had just looked up the bit about the rod bolts and realized I was wrong and you made me think of that. I doubt anyone will ever read this whole thread, but didn’t want to start another bad internet rumor.
I just talked (at length) to Mike at King and, while we didn’t get to discussing the new shortblock idea, he is going to put together something for me in the next couple days so I can start to get a better idea of what I’m going to be spending there.
If there is machine work that needs to be done on a new block, I probably won’t do it. I figured Honda just slaps those pistons in at the factory, so if you were changing them out with factory pistons, you could just do the same thing…
I dunno, I guess I’ll see what Mike has to say. But yeah, you are right, there is some stuff I was going to be upgrading down there. Although it sounds like I may be SOL on oversized JDM pistons of any kind (other than PCT). Mike said he has looked in various places for a year now and can’t find them anymore. Sigh.
As far as I know, even if you replace oem pistons with the same diameter (81mm) you would want a machine shop to spec everything out to ensure a good seal. Though being that its a fresh block, it may be ok. I’m not 100% on that one.
King should definitely know what they’re doing, so I believe you to be in good hands with them.
As far as piston choice… I know you want everything to be as OEM as possible… but JE make some awesome pistons, and at a reasonable price as well. It may be worth it to go with an aftermarket source, if you really want to bump up compression from the B17 stuffs. Either way, I really would push to go to 81.5mm on the bore, simply due to high mileage blocks ‘oblonging’ cylinders… that extra bore would ensure a perfectly round cylinder. Aftermarket pistons would be good in a sense of the free-floating wrist pins, yeilding less wear on the cylinder walls, and also less ‘drag’.
Either way though it seems like you’re on a good track… Doing things the ‘right way’ is a bitch, ain’t it?
I don’t have any personal experience with forged aftermarket pistons but nothing I’ve read about them seems to be in-line with my goals for this project. I imagine they are awesome for their intended purposes, but a comfortable, mildly built street car is not that purpose.
81.25 is the standard upsize bore. If the block is still structurally sound, that should be fine.
If I can’t end up doing an OEM build like I want, I’m going to just go in the exact opposite direction with something wacky like re-sleeving it and boring it out to 86mm and stroking it with a B18C crank and some 130mm rods. 2 liters, baby! 1.5:1 Rod/Stroke ratio. It’ll be a torque monster and feel like I’ve got an H-series in there. weeee!
Well, I never did hear back from the guys at King. I think this happened last spring, too. At least this time he called me a few days later to say he hadn’t forgotten about me…but that was 2 weeks ago. Shesh.
So I think the engine build is going to be put on the back burner for a bit. I’m going to go ahead and get pistons now while I still can but otherwise just not worry about it. If I see some good deals on stuff, I’ll go ahead and pick it up (like this Toda header I got for cheaper than a Spoolin’ performance replica). I’ve just got to clean it up and weld some brackets on it so I can use it with a stock heat shield and it will be good to go. Although I may have it ceramic coated.
I’ll make a build thread once I get some pictures going, but in other news, I have my suspension off to send to Jeff at Special Projects who is going to see about fitting Hardrace bushings and I’m going to focus on my suspension and other stuff like the stereo and just in general making it a nice rounded car. As you may remember, I personally only put about 200 miles on the car before my “preventative” maintenance blew up the engine so there is a lot of other stuff I should take care of before I really need a built engine.
For that reason, I am picking up a used B17A1 and transmission from one of the many red GS-Rs which have been sacrificed up north this winter. This way, I can do a mild OEM style build on my engine at my leisure and then later on build something that will really impress on paper and on the dyno. I think I’m going to try and build the engine myself too. That way I can at least know in which was the build is half-assed.
Having a spare everything will also come in handy, I’m sure.
So I’m hoping to have the car back on the road in a couple months. Who know, I may even have a new exhaust by then. Cough. Cough :hmm:
Sorry Robin, I’ve been lagging hard… I just did some checking right now and all the online calculators are whack and giving me crazy high prices to ship the box. I guess I’ll really need to take it to a shipping center and see what they have to say, or at least call someplace. The only option I saw that was practical was Greyhound for under $100. Just not sure if you’re comfortable w/ that or want to go w/ an actual shipping company. Let me know, and don’t feel bad about nagging me, cause I gotta get this thing to you!
I’m just giving you a hard time. It is 9 degrees out here right now. 9! I am not sure what I was thinking when I said I’d have it back on the road in 2 months. Wishful thinking of better weather, I think.
Greyhound is kind of on my shit-list right now. I bought a door from a guy in CA last summer and even had him pay a shipping company an outrageous fee to package it properly. You can see the results below. The max insurance you can take out is $300 and since the final destination was not a Greyhound station, Greyhound basically said it wasn’t their problem…
I wonder if you could get a local tuner shop to ship it for a small fee? I know it is way cheaper for businesses to ship than individuals. I can also have you ship it to a business (my work) if that will help.
We’ll get it figured out. If I actually start to get impatient about it I will let you know but there is quite a bit I need to do before I’m really even thinking about the exhaust.
Ship suspension arms to Special Projects.
Drive to Wisconson and pick up engine.
Change timing belt on engine.
Install engine.
Install suspension.
Re-loom interior harness.
Reroute and solder back (accidentally) cut power to seatbelts.
Install Interior.
Re-loom engine bay harness.
Fix up ‘new’ Toda header.
Order catalytic converter parts.
and I’ve been working on the car on average about 2 hours a week. so…yeah. About this time next year I’ll probably be needing that thing.
Yeah, I wasn’t too keen on that $300 max either. I just need to go to a shipping center and pick someone’s brain about package size, then box it appropriately. As for the long timeline for your build… I can totally relate, I started putting the engine back together in 07 I think and it wasn’t on the road till 2010… Now I’ve hit another road block due to smog :facepalm:
You don’t have to fish around man; if you need to borrow a P61 Intake and TB, stock exhaust manifold, catalytic converter, intake cam and pistons, just say the word. Lol. Obviously I’m joking about the pistons, but I’m serious about the rest. If you need to borrow anything, just let me know.
and now it’d be too difficult to drill the necessary hole. I personally don’t like the Endyne method. I agree about the precautions which should be taken reguarding a T-fitting like that, but overall I think the setup is a bit messy looking. Sure, it’ll work just fine, it’s just not aesthetically pleasing and I can’t stand that thin tubing w/ it’s compression fittings, they’re not all that fun to use. At least w/ the AN hardware you get to attach all those parts at a workbench and then when you’re working on the car all you have to do is screw/unscrew and there aren’t worries of dropping a ferrule or anything of that sort.
