Hi, this is actually my first post on this board.
The reason i am attracted to the S-AFC setup, is the small cost for the setup i plan on running. I picked up a s-afc for $150, as well as a set of 450cc’s for $50 (which doesnt really factor into this anyway, since you’d need bigger injectors anyway).
Since my plans for my car will never be more than 10-12psi on stock internals, why would i waste the money on a hondata stage 2, then the cost of having someone tune it (as i honestly doubt someone will let you use their software, and simply payper hour, and tune it yourself)? Not to mention that there arent any Hondata equipped dynos near southern maine, that i would want to touch my car.
You can get pretty far just by using a AFC and msd btm, and not even have to touch a FMU.
I guess another reason why people dont use a standalone, is because there are other things that they might consider a more important concern, such as the stock ringlands, and rod bolts.
Just some thought!
-matt
Originally posted by Matthew
Since my plans for my car will never be more than 10-12psi on stock internals, why would i waste the money on a hondata stage 2
i’m not even that stupid :roll:
You’re right, i am stupid.
I mean here’s a b18b with only a block guard running 20psi (on pump gas!)
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=138345
Here’s a b18c runng 22-25 psi on stock internals, except a thinker head gasket.
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=234180
(he works for inlinepro, and since you arent as stupid as me, you most know who they are).
Here’s a stock d16z6 runing 10 psi
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=207551
Here’s a stock zc running 12 psi
http://www.motionless.net/articles/zcturbo1.html
Here’s another d16y8 running 10 psi on stock internals.
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=180690
Yeah, i am stupid for thinking a fulling tuned b18a block, that is in good shape can handle 10-12 psi.
EDIT: I just remembered that the old school HP FAQ (and again, since you arent stupid, you know what that is right? Says honda motors can only 6psi. So that must be case. And yes, i think with a 450’s, a s-afc, and a btm i could tune it well enough to safely run 10-12 at around 11.5 - 12.0 a/f raito in boost.
Duh, stupid me. Here all these idiots were buying eagle rods for their 10+ psi turbo when we can just use our powerful stock LS rods up to 24 psi :roll:
I can see 10-12psi on a stock block, but 24psi just seems too high. And I dont think a blockguard and keep the stock sleeves from cracking at those pressures. Even dsm talon blocks dont usually go that high and they have bulletproof turbo blocks.
Point: your 10-12 psi is doable on a stock block but not a good idea. Your margin of error will be very slim… not to mention your rods holding up.
I’d suggest you call up InlinePRO and call their employee’s liars.
They ‘claimed’ to have a b18c1 block that made 608 hp on stock sleeves. Maybe you can call them out on that one.
As far as the rods holding up, i’m going to be worried about the rod bolts actually.
Originally posted by Matthew
I’d suggest you call up InlinePRO and call their employee’s liars.
They ‘claimed’ to have a b18c1 block that made 608 hp on stock sleeves. Maybe you can call them out on that one.
As far as the rods holding up, i’m going to be worried about the rod bolts actually.
I’m not acepting nor denying this claim, but I will say its more likely than LS rods taking 24psi cuz gsr rods are stronger stock.
Originally posted by notecLS
I dont think a blockguard and keep the stock sleeves from cracking at those pressures.
I ran 24 psi on stock sleves on the dyno, that is where I got such high numbers. 12-18 psi on the street, and 20+ at the track, or on race gas. ( stock sleves and nuformz block guard )
Yeah just look at stoopid everyone know’s him right? stock motors with blockgaurds heaps of boost. Mathew what I don’t get is the people who do not build there motors have the greatest need for STANDALONE tuning this is the most important aspect if you want those ringlands to stay in place at high boost your going to want some good tuning.
Originally posted by Matthew
Since my plans for my car will never be more than 10-12psi on stock internals, why would i waste the money on a hondata stage 2 You can get pretty far just by using a AFC and msd btm, and not even have to touch a FMU.
I can only imagine you have never driven a car with a fmu. A fmu with 10-12lbs of boost will cost alot more than a computer when are tearing down the engine to repair the damage.
I run a SAFC with FMU on 12psi daily driven…no tear downs yet…it’s all in the tuning…
you need to check your facts before you post
Originally posted by Haberdasher
[B]I run a SAFC with FMU on 12psi daily driven…no tear downs yet…it’s all in the tuning…
you need to check your facts before you post [/B]
Nothing seems to be stock on your bottom end. What tuning do you have other than the SAFC? i guess you can drive the rest of your life if you are never in boost.
What facts? the safc is a bandaid with very limited adjustment. the fmu puts excessive pressure on fuel injectors which can lead to failure and spray pattern problems. driveability suffers. you add up the price of a safc, fmu, and btm and it is pretty close to a computer. Why not do it right from the beginning. The fact is different people have different standards for what is acceptable.
Since my plans for my car will never be more than 10-12psi on stock internals, why would i waste the money on a hondata stage 2 You can get pretty far just by using a AFC and msd btm, and not even have to touch a FMU.
I can only imagine you have never driven a car with a fmu. A fmu with 10-12lbs of boost will cost alot more than a computer when are tearing down the engine to repair the damage.
I think you mis-read what i wrote. I was saying with just a s-afc and btm you could safely run 10-12 psi, lots of people have done it. Using rpm specific and boost specific fueling corrections, the s-afc is quite capable.
I dont want to use a FMU with my car, but if i did it would only be a small 4:1 disc, since i would already have large injectors.
The standalones you guys are saying are so cheap are the ones you have to bring somewhere to have tuned. This is normally in the 300-400 range, and you are left to their mercy. There is only one Hondata dealer in this tri-state area, and every i have read about them has said that they are horrible. The solution to this is to buy a 4b, which cost how much to have the ability to tune your own, $1200?
It’s not looking like such a great deal just for 10psi now. I could buy 2 more b18b long blocks for the extra cost! I guess thats cause i will need them right?
Hondata does rule though…i wish i knew more about the E-Manage though.
Originally posted by Luciferi
[B]Nothing seems to be stock on your bottom end. What tuning do you have other than the SAFC? i guess you can drive the rest of your life if you are never in boost.
What facts? the safc is a bandaid with very limited adjustment. the fmu puts excessive pressure on fuel injectors which can lead to failure and spray pattern problems. driveability suffers. you add up the price of a safc, fmu, and btm and it is pretty close to a computer. Why not do it right from the beginning. The fact is different people have different standards for what is acceptable. [/B]
I’m only using a SAFC for tuning…and what the fuc|( is “i guess you can drive the rest of your life if you are never in boost” supposed to mean? I run 12psi daily…
Running an AFC and FMU is a very reliable street setup for low boost levels. Standalone systems are not economical, the gains from using one are not much higher than the level of performance you’d get from a standalone. Especially if you’re OBD 0 and you have to go with a Zdyne unit at over $1000. My drivability has never suffered, once again…it’s all in the tuning…
Stock LS rods are very strong. I have heard of people running over 250hp no problems.
You can get a Zdyne gold ( the only version ) for $750-$850 bux now. You need to buy in with a partner. You might want to call them up and ask about this.
Anyone heard of the Microtech standalone.
Here in orlando, fl the microtech standalone system is getting very popular for alot of imports. My friend has a Rx7 TurboII and he got the system installed on his car and the car runs super great. I heard the microtech systems for our cars works like the Zdyne. Is a very popular standalone from australia. You guys should start reading up that system. Specially those with 90-91 tegs. I would get a hondata but of course they don’t have a program for a OBD0 PR4 ecu’s. Is all good Microtech BABY!!
ALso the microtech is up there with motec and haltec…But is very cheap for us to afford. It can be tune with a computer, it’s got datalogger and all that good features a good standalone should have.
Re: Anyone heard of the Microtech standalone.
Originally posted by lorito2yk
[B]Here in orlando, fl the microtech standalone system is getting very popular for alot of imports. My friend has a Rx7 TurboII and he got the system installed on his car and the car runs super great. I heard the microtech systems for our cars works like the Zdyne. Is a very popular standalone from australia. You guys should start reading up that system. Specially those with 90-91 tegs. I would get a hondata but of course they don’t have a program for a OBD0 PR4 ecu’s. Is all good Microtech BABY!!
ALso the microtech is up there with motec and haltec…But is very cheap for us to afford. It can be tune with a computer, it’s got datalogger and all that good features a good standalone should have. [/B]
Does it plug into the stock engine wiring harness?
Re: Hondata vs. FMU + AFC
Originally posted by leifintegra
[B]Why do people get a FMU + a AFC when you can just get a Hondata stage 2b for only $645? With the 2b you don’t need the FMU + AFC right? Hence the reason a Hondata ECU is called a ‘standalone’?
Thanks,
Leif [/B]
Actually it costs $545, the 3b is $725
Good questions and stuffs all around. I’d like to clarify a few things, shoot a couple rounds into the air, and see what else stirs up…
Hondata now supports xtronic’s ROMulator for tuning on the fly. Yes, finally. That’s the good news. The bad news is, it’s yet another thing you have to buy to tune your Hondata.
Zdyne… is pretty much unsupported from what I hear these days. It’s my understanding that Jeff Matthews has a different full time job than Zdyne, so it’s more of a semi-professional hobby.
AEM’s EMS is a great setup, but the hardware and the software is being beta tested on the general public at a premium. A lot of people I talk to have one or two go bad on them. The replacement is overnighted to them, and tech support is outstanding - AEM is a great company and will fix all the bugs promptly I am sure - but understand you are a guinnea pig. It’s also a bit confusing for a newbie to step into and tune - three different idle maps? Hello?
Hondata/Zdyne/EMS = too much $$$. Prepare for open source boost code, kids, it’s closing in.
For all you LS/Zdyne guys, I have a PR4 tune with OEM correct fuel/ignition that came from Steven Dick aka Speed PHreak - some of you may or may not be familiar with him. I know there’s a nasty little webpage out there with a variety of .zdy tunes, but if you’re unfamiliar with it… now you know.
NotecLS is full of ****. Love you, bro 
Haberdasher’s FMU/AFC setup is good for far more power than he realizes. If he combines it with a set of big fat 450cc injectors, and takes the time to tune it, there have been people pushing past 400 hp with that setup. It’s a bit much at first to wrap your mind around what each of the components does and how to apply them, but it’s been done before.
I wouldn’t trust an FMU setup pushing past 90 psi fuel pressure to not toast my engine eventually. Fuel pressures of over 60 psi start to shut the injector. Few fuel pumps can keep up with high pressures for more than a few seconds - research fuel pumps before going this route. The old claims of Hondas only being good for ~6-8 psi is because of the bad old FMU days. Some people have good luck with them - but they tune tune tune.
LS rods are and aren’t very strong. Lay them next to some B16 rods sometime and tell me what you think. Sure are an improvement over D-series, LOL. They are capable of handling all sorts of power as long as they aren’t exposed to the internal combustion engine impact gun effect known as detonation. The margin of safety with them once you start detonating is much less than the VTEC units.
Originally posted by Matthew
You’re right, i am stupid.
I mean here’s a b18b with only a block guard running 20psi (on pump gas!)
Turbo LS with Hondata - Honda-Tech - Honda Forum Discussion
stock LS motor will handle about the same power w/ a block guard, but we didn’t want to push it that hard. shami’s (jason’s gf, and feb 03 issue of SCC) hatch runs 11.60’s on a stock LS, blockguard, nitrous, and 20psi. makes about 380hp. STOCK RODS, PISTONS, ETC, t00ned with Hondata.
he and i just finished up another black hatch that makes a good bit more power than shami’s do a search on honda-tech if you’d like to know more about it.
P.S. I had a really long reply to this thread typed out explaining the pro’s and con’s of each system listed, b/c i have hours of experience with both, but it got deleted when i tried to send it, so if anyone is interested let me know, and i’ll sit down some other time and try to pass along my info. I really don’t feel like spending another 20 minutes typing it all out.
Hey secretagent, I would defietily like some of your knowledge. I had a b18 turbo an blew it up, but now I have a b16 and I want to program the ecu myself sort of like hondata, I need to know some parameters and how far I can push it on a stock bottom end.