To All The K-Series Nut Huggers...

GENERAL General G2/G2IC Discussion
181

If you are referring to cars like those used by Realtime, that’s quite a bit different. I’m not saying it’s not a great platform for road racing. I’m asking what you meant by “put an f22 on a road course for an hour and see what happens.”. I’m trying to understand why you would say that unless you know somehting abotu the f i dont.

$2200 can get you a complete swap if you shop smart. I think the chances of finding a COMPLETE k24 swap for that price are low. I’m talking engine, ecu, trans, axles, harness, mounts (car specifc), etc. By the time you buy it all to make it work in whatever car you want it to work in, you have racked up a lot more $$ than you woudl have spent on another swap. That’s my point.

K swap into a DC/EG/EF/DA/EK will cost more for a STOCK swap w/ necessary swap parts. For the overall cost you can have a BUILT b/d/f/h swapped into any of those chassis.

182

Well, regarding my comment on the f22. I meant just that. Let’s see it. The problem is that the engine was completely designed for economical driving and practically everything needs to be replaced in order to make it fast (and of course that CAN be done).

Ok, so I think we finally came to some kind of a consensus, your issue is more with the fact that people are willing to spend so much money on a K swap when one could spend the same (or less) swapping a B series in and building it to the teeth.

BUT, your argument is still about money. If money is no issue, the K series IS a superior engine. That is what I am trying to say.

183

That built B/D/F/H will still have about as much power as a stock K20 swap with a good header and Hondata K-Pro. A K20 swap costs now under $7,000 to complete, and you will spend damn near the same amount on a comparable B series swap that will reach the ~240 whp that the stock K20 swap (with K-pro) will put out. The cost of the engine, pistons, rods, porting, cams, valvetrain, intake manifold, header, machining, balancing, assembly and tuning will put you damn near the cost of a K20 swap. Not only will the K-swap have similar power figures, it will:

A) Get better gas mileage
B) Have the awesome reliability of a stock engine
C) Have plenty more potential to make even more power.

Trust me, I’m one of the biggest “haters” of K-swaps into the G2 chassis, but facts are facts. The K-swap is the future.

184

[QUOTE=kNOwLedGe420;1986439]That built B/D/F/H will still have about as much power as a stock K20 swap with a good header and Hondata K-Pro. A K20 swap costs now under $7,000 to complete, and you will spend damn near the same amount on a comparable B series swap that will reach the ~240 whp that the stock K20 swap (with K-pro) will put out. The cost of the engine, pistons, rods, porting, cams, valvetrain, intake manifold, header, machining, balancing, assembly and tuning will put you damn near the cost of a K20 swap. Not only will the K-swap have similar power figures, it will:

A) Get better gas mileage
B) Have the awesome reliability of a stock engine
C) Have plenty more potential to make even more power.

Trust me, I’m one of the biggest “haters” of K-swaps into the G2 chassis, but facts are facts. The K-swap is the future.[/QUOTE]

D) gearing

185

:umno: damn near 7k to hit 240? go check prices again there chief. you can build full on race engines for that much.

gearing? :umno: again first gear is USELESS on the 6 speed. there are PLENTY of b series transmissions to choose parts from to get any number of gear ratios for any number of situations. it’s not that expensive.

gas mileage? :umno: if its tuned properly you can get fantastic gas mileage. there are plenty.

reliability? :umno: it’s still a honda. reliability is all in the parts you choose, the tuning you put to it. just b/c it’s built doesn’t mean it’s not reliable.

power is not everything. stock k20 to a built something else? it’s not what you make, it’s HOW you make it and HOW you use it.

i see where you all are TRYING to go with your argument. if money is no object, i’d throw an s2000 engine in my car. with money you can do anything of course. 2jz swap no sh*t.

ALL honda engines were designed very similarly, there are pieces of each, and the tuning that make them primarily geared toward economical driving. its a consumer car. even the ITr has plenty of potential in just tuning alone.

for 7k you could put together an EF hatch, with a built b series in it, full suspension, and sticky tires, and be very competitive on road courses and autox.

here’s my point. you can stretch your $ a LOT further but just not using a K. the proof is all over the internet. there are plenty of builds on the internet making great all motor power and not using k series.

186

^argue all you want. B series still doesnt have VTC and let me know when you find a b series that can put down 247whp with just a skunk2 stg 3 cams/springs/retainers setup.

187

ahh yes it was only a matter of time. ZOMG VTC!

again . . . it’s not how much power you put down, it’s how you use what you got. that’s pretty much been a honda staple from the get go.

188

I’m calling BS on the “stock K20 with K-Pro” hitting ~240whp, at least not on street gas. Maybe a K24a2 with cams and kpro if you don’t mind endangering the bottom end running it over 8k.

And how is 1st gear worthless?

Also, back when I was considering swapping engines in my G2, a B18C1 swap ran at least $3k, so yes I consider a K24a2 for $2200 to be a good deal.

189

[QUOTE=kNOwLedGe420;1986439]That built B/D/F/H will still have about as much power as a stock K20 swap with a good header and Hondata K-Pro. A K20 swap costs now under $7,000 to complete, and you will spend damn near the same amount on a comparable B series swap that will reach the ~240 whp that the stock K20 swap (with K-pro) will put out. The cost of the engine, pistons, rods, porting, cams, valvetrain, intake manifold, header, machining, balancing, assembly and tuning will put you damn near the cost of a K20 swap. Not only will the K-swap have similar power figures, it will:

A) Get better gas mileage
B) Have the awesome reliability of a stock engine
C) Have plenty more potential to make even more power.

Trust me, I’m one of the biggest “haters” of K-swaps into the G2 chassis, but facts are facts. The K-swap is the future.[/QUOTE]

Yup.

190

Intake, a GOOD header, an exhaust, an RBC intake manifold, larger throttle body, and K-pro will get you damn near it.

It’s still a 100% internally stock K20A or K20Z.

191

$7k isn’t much to build 240 all motor power reliably with a b-series…seriously.

are you telling me that my 6th gear is useless? i get plenty of use out of it. that’s not what i was referring to anyway. I’m talking more about exiting a turn and having the torque and gearing to get you to peak power quickly.

not when you are sitting at 6,000 rpms on the highway stuck in 5th gear. and let’s be honest with each other…12.5:1 compression pistons and big cams on a b-series are going to require more fuel then a technologically more advanced i-VTEC engine in stock form.

Well one reason i would consider a stock k20a more reliable then a beefed up b18 is because who built your b18? Some 25 year old who got drunk the night before and had sex with his girlfriends sister (little sarcasm)? I know what company built my motor, you might have heard of them…they’re called Honda Motor Co…

that’s all i have time for now.

192

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=34644&page=16

there’s a few guys in there making some great power. some, more then others. post 315 says:

“Motor: K20A
Header: Hytech
Cams: Stock
Intake: AEM
exhaust: Tanabe medallion touring
Tranny: Stock
Numbers: 243hp 178tq”

ahh yes! VTC. If you’ve never watched a tuning session on a K-Series and the wonders that adjusting VTC does, i’d suggest it. you’ll be sold.

193

[QUOTE=kyle10182;1986860]$7k isn’t much to build 240 all motor power reliably with a b-series…seriously.

are you telling me that my 6th gear is useless? i get plenty of use out of it. that’s not what i was referring to anyway. I’m talking more about exiting a turn and having the torque and gearing to get you to peak power quickly.

not when you are sitting at 6,000 rpms on the highway stuck in 5th gear. and let’s be honest with each other…12.5:1 compression pistons and big cams on a b-series are going to require more fuel then a technologically more advanced i-VTEC engine in stock form.

Well one reason i would consider a stock k20a more reliable then a beefed up b18 is because who built your b18? Some 25 year old who got drunk the night before and had sex with his girlfriends sister (little sarcasm)? I know what company built my motor, you might have heard of them…they’re called Honda Motor Co…

that’s all i have time for now.[/QUOTE]

You’re right. 7k is ridiculous. i’m saying you don’t need nearly that much.

first gear is useless. look at the ratios. if you eliminated it, the transmission would be just as effective. as for corner exit/entry, have you looked at most of the shorter geared b series transmissions? they are fine for what you are describing. they all wrap through their respective powerbands rather effectively. especially the b16/17/itr transmissions.

i don’t know of many setups sitting at 6 grand on the highway. i don’t even know of any gear ratio combination that could do that. again fuel economy is all a matter of tuning. the ecu PROGRAM itself. gas mileage is a moot point. both can be tuned for great gas mileage be it stock or built form.

reliability, again, is a matter of parts choice, and tuning. honda motor company built mine too. in a roundabout way. i would use all their specs for clearances, tolerances, etc etc. and if it’s built guess what . . . you get the opportunity to have the bottom end balanced/blueprinted which can equate to added reliability b/c it reduces unnecessary stress. you get the opportunity to use stronger hardware, allowing for added strength on top of what honda put together in the first place.

vtc is a nice idea, but it doesn’t blow up my skirt and give me a boner.

simple technology that works. it still works. it will continue to work.

194

agree to disagree. i don’t really see it happening.

yea, the itr trans is great. but there is a reason honda stopped making them and moved on to something- wait for it…better. And i don’t need to look at the ratios on paper to know that i can use 1st gear just fine…i guess thats the difference here. i went from a JDM 4.7 fd ITR to a A2 trans and i have personal experience. and first gear has plenty of use.

i guess i need to note sarcasm every time i use it. my 6th gear on the highway is the same as an LS in 5th gear. So i have the 1st-5th of an ITR (or better) and i still have the extra gear for cruising that everyone with a b-series finds their selves wanting to swap out in their ys1’s. I see that gas mileage is a moot point but gearing can help other areas also i have a question for you; do you think that an engine with a larger cam, 12.5:1 compression pistons spinning at 4,000 rpms will last just as long as the an all oem honda engine spinning at 3,000 rpms for its highway life? Is that question clear?

well that’s all subjective. Personally, i trust honda enough to believe that they built an engine, that i love, right the first time. So i’ll leave it be. My point was that i’m sure Honda has a little more hours invested in the R&D of their engines then skunk2 does for example.

Have you ever seen first hand how a power band can transform with the adjustment of that gear?

Ya know how when u go for that $5,000 engine build on your quest to make 220whp and you see those shiny cam gears that you gotta cut your valve cover open for adjustment for? But the problem is that you can only adjust it when the car is off. Well imagine if you can adjust that as your driving down the road, and the ECU is already tuned for each adjustment? that’s bad ass.

195

[QUOTE=kyle10182;1986995]agree to disagree. i don’t really see it happening.

yea, the itr trans is great. but there is a reason honda stopped making them and moved on to something- wait for it…better. And i don’t need to look at the ratios on paper to know that i can use 1st gear just fine…i guess thats the difference here. i went from a JDM 4.7 fd ITR to a A2 trans and i have personal experience. and first gear has plenty of use.

i guess i need to note sarcasm every time i use it. my 6th gear on the highway is the same as an LS in 5th gear. So i have the 1st-5th of an ITR (or better) and i still have the extra gear for cruising that everyone with a b-series finds their selves wanting to swap out in their ys1’s. I see that gas mileage is a moot point but gearing can help other areas also i have a question for you; do you think that an engine with a larger cam, 12.5:1 compression pistons spinning at 4,000 rpms will last just as long as the an all oem honda engine spinning at 3,000 rpms for its highway life? Is that question clear?

well that’s all subjective. Personally, i trust honda enough to believe that they built an engine, that i love, right the first time. So i’ll leave it be. My point was that i’m sure Honda has a little more hours invested in the R&D of their engines then skunk2 does for example.

Have you ever seen first hand how a power band can transform with the adjustment of that gear?

Ya know how when u go for that $5,000 engine build on your quest to make 220whp and you see those shiny cam gears that you gotta cut your valve cover open for adjustment for? But the problem is that you can only adjust it when the car is off. Well imagine if you can adjust that as your driving down the road, and the ECU is already tuned for each adjustment? that’s bad ass.[/QUOTE]

you can easily see it happening. price it out online. google.com will help.

the reason honda stopped making it was b/c that chassis was 10 years old. if they dont update the cars, they won’t sell anything. that doesn’t necessarily make one better than the other. the cars they put the k into are fat pigs with bullshit suspension setups (except for the tsx). i HATE McPherson struts with a passion of a 1000 blazing suns.

yeah you physically use first gear so what. you have the same crusing gear b/c they jammed that tiny stupid 6th into the case. you aren’t gonna win this one with me man. ive driven enough of them to hate the first gear. if i had a type s, the FIRST mod i’d do is swap in the EP3 5 speed. no question.

you don’t need 6 speeds to road race a honda. period. and not everyone want’s to swap it out in their ys1s. i certainly don’t. you don’t use 5th gear for anythign but highway. the hell with 5th gear. short geared ys1 ratios are VERY close to an itr, so i meet you on that level.

there is NO way to compare longevity dude. imho yes i think so. all things being equal. if you use the same parts honda uses, why shouldnt it? b/c it spins higher? so what. if you track yours more than i track mine, mine will last longer. it’s all relative.

you have any idea how much R&D goes into making quality aftermarket parts?

yes i have seen k series being tuned on a dyno. vtc is convenient and interesting but like i said, doesn’t blow my hair back.

196

LSx > *

/thread

197

[QUOTE=ricecake;1987035]LSx > *

/thread[/QUOTE]

thanks douchebag. really appreciate that. lol.

198

Those are very good numbers, wonder if the dyno is optimistic. General opinion on Club RSX is that that would put you more in the 210-225whp range. This guy got 257/196 on a dyno known to read low with all this:

ERL K24 12.5:1 Superdeck Block, Wiseco Prepped Pistons, Blueprint I-Beam “Pro Series” Rods, ACL Teflon Bearings, ARP Headstuds, Hytech Oil Pump/Baffle, Endyn Prepped K20 Head and Blueprint Intake Manifold @ 360+cfm, IPS K2’s, SSR 4-1 Header, Greddy Ti-C 70mm Exhaust, CC Stg4 Clutch, ITR Transmission, Quaife LSD, ATS 5.062FD

6th on my k20a2 transmission is lower than the 5th in my DA, 2700/3200 at 60/70 compared to 3000/3500 in the DA. First is very usable for daily driving, I’m not sure if icemanGSR is talking only about road course (irrelevant to 99.9% of owners) or not.

Oh, and about that McPherson strut thing, guess Porsche and BMW have got it all wrong all these years.

199

icemanGSR - i ban you from using the " :umno: " smiley :smiley:

all hail B16!

if i had the money, i would go K, but not any K, and any K transmission, it would have to be the right combination, i.e. LS tranny on B16, the fellas who have tried it know what im talkin about

200

[QUOTE=tegboi;1987147]icemanGSR - i ban you from using the " :umno: " smiley :smiley:

all hail B16!

if i had the money, i would go K, but not any K, and any K transmission, it would have to be the right combination, i.e. LS tranny on B16, the fellas who have tried it know what im talkin about[/QUOTE]

nobody asked you nuffin.

imo 6th gear is useless for everything. bet you can dead start with second just as easily. its so short you utilize virtually none of the powerband. its ridiculous.

i didn’t say they got it wrong, i said i HATE the combination. its mushy feeling. most companies use it b/c its cheaper.